German Russian Gas Pipeline to Europe Faces Sanctions Under U.S. Defense Bill

Discussion in 'Russia & Eastern Europe' started by Sobo, Dec 12, 2019.

  1. Sobo

    Sobo Banned

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    I wonder if some americans realize, that this wil lead to the final break between Germany and USA?

    I also wonder if they realize, that this is a hostile act in german souvereignity. USA try to force Germany to buy american LNG, which is 30% more expensive than russian gas. USA tries to make Germany a hostage of USA.

    I also wonder if USA realizes, that this is futile, since it would be impossible to force a democracy under such sanctions. No nation accepts a foreign power to mingle into its internal affairs. Its outright insulting and provokes a sentiment, that no democratic elected government ever could make the slightest concessions.

    The fact is, that the entire political spectrum from right to left stands behind Nordstream II. That completing this pipeline has become a national project against american tyranny.

    So whats the result? The pipeline will be completed, completion could only be delayed. Leading politicians here call Merkel to install counter sanctions worth 10.5 billion € against american companies to defend our souvereignity.

    It will further destroy american and german relations.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/russia...-sanctions-under-u-s-defense-bill-11576065601

    Russia’s Gas Pipeline to Europe Faces Sanctions Under U.S. Defense Bill
    U.S. lawmakers aim to halt $10.5 billion project, Nord Stream 2, by targeting key contractors

     
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  2. Professor Peabody

    Professor Peabody Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Two words......WHO CARES? ......And the left thought Trump was a Putin puppet.
     
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  3. Yulee

    Yulee Well-Known Member

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    Truly amazing. I guess you weren’t old enough to remember the last time the Russians were living in your land.

    Hey I’m on board. Let’s completely break all relations get your goods out of our country. No more BMWs, no more Mercedes. Let me know how 14.2% of BMWs annual sales being lost does for their company.


    Germany will not prosper without the United States dollar. So if they don’t want to play fair. Buh bye
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
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  4. Professor Peabody

    Professor Peabody Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Those buyers will simply buy Lexus.
     
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  5. Yulee

    Yulee Well-Known Member

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    Right??


    Germany’s just getting a little too high on it’s horse for a pissant little country that it is.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
  6. Sobo

    Sobo Banned

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    Trying to force yourself into a souvereign nations energy politics is playing fair for you?

    I just would like to know how you think Germany should react when a foreign power wants to stop decissions made by our government, supported by the people of Germany?

    Germany, the 4th largest economy in the world, leading nation of europe.

    French president Macron labelled it a hostile act against Europe btw.

    Chancellor Merkel did not comment yet. Her speaker said its just a symbolic thing. Trump know that this would cause the final nail in the coffin and because of that will delay all that until the pipeline is completed anyways. He could have used sanctions long ago but feared to do so, so lets wait this out. Or as Wolfgang Ischinger said, there is no need to react to evry fart coming from the US administration. Lets wait how things develop. If they install sanctions, we will answer with sanctions in same height.

    That said, im a proud person, i rather see BMW with 15% less sales than bend the knee infront foreign power.

    If we bend now and allow US to dictate us our energy politics, that will just be the start for worse. We would lose our freedom, our democracy and become slaves under a foreign power.

    As for Russians and our politics in general, you might have to acccept to mind your own business.

    You are a patriot yourself, you would NEVER accept another country dictate you energy politics.

    Dont expect others to do, what would be unacceptable for you.
     
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  7. Badaboom

    Badaboom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Germany has to bend the knee because you are totally dependent on other for your raw material. France and Japan has the same problem.
    You may be rich but only because you are selling transformed goods and services both of which also make you dependent on others.
    The only way you could correct this is by trying to invade your neighbors, once again, and we all know how that ended.
     
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  8. Sobo

    Sobo Banned

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    Must be a shocking thing for you to see, we dont bend the knee.

    We continue as planned. The pipeline will be build, no matter what. This is the core moment to defend our independence and freedom.

    Wolfgang Ischinger , former german ambassador in the USA and leader of the munich security conference made another point regarding that.

    He said, that USA now have fallen so deep to try to sanction ally to force that ally to buy american LNG is something deeply worrysome. It shows that USA basicly is collapsing on the world stage.

    Its a panic reaction of a contracting power, that loses on all fronts. In trade against the EU and China. In military matters against Russia. A dieing global power with some still infleuntial circles who dont want this to happen.

    Ischininger compared it to the last years of the USSR. He said, such efforts would never have been allowed under presidents like Reagan, Clinton or Bush (both sen and junior). It shows USA has lost credibility and influence.

    This is crazy for manny reasons. 1The pipeline is nearly completed and nothing will stop that. For Germany this has become a project of national pride that must be completed, no matter what, to show souvereignity.

    It shows US impotence, too push such a mad decission into the world, knowing full way, that it will fail and only rip apart german - american relations.

    Meanwhile the EU stepped up. EU head of commission von der Leyen called it a hostile act, which will be answered if it becomes reality.
     
  9. Badaboom

    Badaboom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Doesn't change on iota of your reality. Germany is ressources starved.
    All this will do is replace whom you'll be depending on. The Russians will be controlling the tap and can cut you off on a whim.
     
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  10. LogNDog

    LogNDog Well-Known Member

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    I agree. If Germany is so hell bent on bending over for the USSR then who is the US to stand in the way, right? Long live Mutter Russia.
     
  11. Sobo

    Sobo Banned

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    As they do that we buy from Iran, Bahrain and Cyprus. They depend on the income. We dont depend on their gas. Thats the difference. A cut off pipeline earns Putin no money.
     
  12. Sobo

    Sobo Banned

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    We are practical thinking people. Tell me how we bend to Russia when we buy their gas and also can switch supplier within days?
     
  13. Badaboom

    Badaboom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How innocent you are!
    You don't have gas, you have to buy somebody else gas, you're dependant on them for gas.
    Germany, like France and Japan are agrarian nation that can't sustain her manufactural industry by it's own ressources in case of conflict or other strife. Nothing you can do about that. This is why you lost both world war. You can't play the long game.
     
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  14. Sobo

    Sobo Banned

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    Germany, is an industrial powerhouse. We dont need to buy gas from russia, we can buy from anyone. Because we have something in very high amount: money. technology, scientific knowledge. We have, what others want. :)

    Anyways, i like the reactions from Berlin and Brussels.

    German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas said: "German energy politics are decided in Berlin. Not in the USA."

    EU trade commissioner Paul Hogan: "The project runs legal under german and european legislation. This is an attack against Europe and will be answered accordingly if it comes into reality."

    Jürgen Trittin, leading member of german green party: "I´m against the pipeline, but Germany is free to do trade deals and this freedom is unnegotiable"

    Peter Beyer, Merkels chief negotiator with the americans was not surpised by the recent developments. He said there is no possibilty to debate about thi with the Trump regime.

    German economic minister Altmaier issued a statement, saying: "american extra territorial sanctions are meaningless for Germany"

    Gregor Gysi said, a good answer now would be to ignore the americans. The sanctions are just hot air and would come into effect after the pipeline is completed.
     
  15. Badaboom

    Badaboom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You can buy but you can't live without and you can't produce your own.

    You have money because you're selling finished goods and service with ressources bought elsewhere. You're also dependant on your customer base to buy your products. In short you're doubly ****ed. If your customer stop buying you won't get the $$$ and without the money you wont get the ressources needed to produce. In short you're quite replaceable.
     
  16. LogNDog

    LogNDog Well-Known Member

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    Switching is easier said than done. Gaszprom owns 51% of the pipeline. Germany owns 15.5%.

    "The Nord Stream offshore pipeline is operated by the special purpose company—Nord Stream AG. Nord Stream AG was incorporated in Zug, Switzerland on 30 November 2005. Shareholders of the company are the Russian gas company Gazprom (51% of shares), German companies Wintershall and PEG Infrastruktur AG (Uniper) (both 15.5%), the Dutch gas company Gasunie (9%), and the French gas company Engie (9%)."

    The main suppliers to the pipeline are Russian.

    "The main source of natural gas for the Nord Stream pipeline is Yuzhno-Russkoye field, which is located in the Krasnoselkupsky District, Yamalo-Nenets Autonomous Okrug, Tyumen Oblast.[54][55][56] Nord Stream is also fed from fields in Yamal Peninsula, Ob-Taz bay. Gazprom has also indicated that the majority of gas produced at the Shtokman field would be sold to Europe via the Nord Stream pipeline. For this purpose, the pipeline from the Shtokman field via Kola peninsula to Volkhov or Vyborg in the Leningrad Oblast has to be built.[57]"

    Germany signed a 25 year contract. It expires in 2030.

    "On 13 October 2005 Gazprom signed a contract with German gas company Wingas, a joint venture of Gazprom and Wintershall (subsidiary of BASF), to supply 9 billion cubic metres (320 billion cubic feet) of natural gas per year for 25 years.[70] On 16 June 2006 Gazprom and Danish DONG Energy signed a 20-year contract for delivery of 1 billion cubic metres (35 billion cubic feet) Russian gas per year to Denmark, while DONG Energy will supply 600 million cubic metres (21 billion cubic feet) natural gas per year to the Gazprom's subsidiary, Gazprom Marketing and Trading, in the United Kingdom.[71] 1 October 2009 the companies signed a contract to double the delivery to Denmark.[72]

    On 29 August 2006 Gazprom and E.ON Ruhrgas signed an agreement to extend current contracts on natural gas supplies and have signed a contract for an additional 4 billion cubic metres (140 billion cubic feet) per year through the Nord Stream pipeline.[73] On 19 December 2006, Gazprom and Gaz de France (now GDF Suez) agreed to an additional 2.5 billion cubic metres (88 billion cubic feet) gas supply through the Nord Stream.[74]"


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream

    Germany already bent over.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
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  17. Sobo

    Sobo Banned

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    Sometimes i believe americans are bit on the numb side. What has this contract to do with us signing another contract with Iran and get gas from them via South Link or by shipping?

    Beside that we have more trust in Russia regarding fullfilling contracts than USA.

    What matters now is, that we show that we dont allow USA to dictate over us.
     
  18. Badaboom

    Badaboom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, what you show is that you're dumb enough to believe the Russian and Iranians are your friend and they'll never screw you over... LOLOL...
     
  19. Sobo

    Sobo Banned

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    We can produce fuel ourself. Synthetic fuels.

    That said. If we are replaceable i advice you to do just that. Stop to act like that pathetic Ex that tries to force a former partner to do something.

    I think its clear from this point, that this "alliance" is pretty much dead. Dont you agree?

    I guess what USA feels is like phantom pain. Germany is the 2nd most powerful country in the western block. In the last 70 years our nations had a close alliance.

    Now that we break away from our Orbit and take France and all of Western Europe with us, its something that is hard for you to accept.

    When i was in USA i experienced something. You desperatly want to be liked. You crave to be seen as rolemodel. The very fact that a former ally turns away from you, leads to such reactions that we see now.
     
  20. Sobo

    Sobo Banned

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    Wrong. The Russians and Iranians are not our friends. They are business partners. The difference is, USA acts as friend and wants to screw over. There is no difference between USA, Russia and Iran regarding that. Your LNG is just 30% more expensive. Thats why we dropped it. You are free to outcompete them. Lower price on their level and build a pipeline across the atlantic. We dont want LNG send via tanker. You need energy to liquify. Its not effective.

    You fail to offer the better product. Its called free market. You are free to offer your LNG and compete.
     
  21. Sobo

    Sobo Banned

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    Merkel now issued a statement and i actually like it.

    "The USA decided to issue sanctions against a german energy project. We have to understand, that friendship with the USA is not without conditions. But can this be called "friendship" then?

    In the case of Nordstream II, USA try evrything in their power to openly show there is no true friendship. The USA use without hesitation blackmail, to open the german market for american LNG.

    If we follow those demands, what will that lead to? Will USA decide about our business contracts with China or our 5g Network?

    The americans have to understand that there is a difference between Friends and Vasalls.

    Its from uttermost importance that Germany rejects this hostile behavior. Beside that, it is only limited threatening. As it looks now, the sanctions will only come into effect after the construction is completed, which makes them symbolic in nature. "
     
  22. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You know what they say.

    Third time's the charm.
     
  23. Sobo

    Sobo Banned

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    I have a honest question for you as a patriot. Would you accept a foreign power trying to dictate your politics?

    Your anti german sentiments aside. Just would like to know.
     
  24. jcarlilesiu

    jcarlilesiu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I couldn't give a rat's ass if you like us.

    By the way, get your facts straight. We haven't ever sold to Germany.

    https://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/ng_move_expc_s1_a.htm

    Maybe this doesn't have to do with the free market? Hmm

    It's about time we pull all our military and defense shield out of east Europe. Take care of yourselves.
     
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  25. Badaboom

    Badaboom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Synthetic fuel was a failure. It takes more ressources to produce it than what you get at the end. You tried that already and failed.

    As for "this alliance" you never really were part of it. You were only destine to be the next battleground and the first to be wiped out. You still are irrelevant as a military power.
     
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