The Berniephobes are wrong

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by btthegreat, Feb 17, 2020.

  1. bomberfox

    bomberfox Active Member

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    Orwell disagreed possibly because he fought actual bloody wars against fascists and he was critical of authoritarianism. Martin Luther King Jr, Albert Einstein, Woody Gutherie, all democratic socialists :).
     
  2. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    So? Socialism is all about taking everything from everyone and redistributing based on your perception of peoples needs.

    That is totalitarian and unconstitutional.

    It is literally impossible for a socialist to honestly take an oath to defend thr constitution.
     
  3. bomberfox

    bomberfox Active Member

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    Nope. According to their work. If you work for a co-op you are doin a market socialism. Co-ops elect managers who can earn more than the rank and file but if the workers decide the manager is a dirtbag, vote em out.
     
  4. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    So ops aren't socialist.

    It's just a capitalist enterprise owned by the people who work there.

    Should all employees take business away from their owners? Hell no.
     
  5. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    so no arguments on points supplied. no surprise there.
     
  6. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think you will find that Neo Liberalism has taken the money from the people and given it to the very few. During this time the US has been losing its middle class and the ability of wwc Americans to fulfil the 'American Dream' has disappeared. This has resulted in a massive increase in drink and drug and suicide problems among them.
     
  7. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Lets be clear what we are talking about or what Sanders was talking about. People say it is Democratic Socialism.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

    Neo Liberal Capitalism is not democratic and given that it is a system in which Governments answer to Corporate Power not the people is not Democratic. It leaves itself wide open to Totalitarianism and is where we are presently poised.

    Most Western Countries engaged in a form of Social Democracy from the end of WW2 until Thatcher/Regan and the beginning of neo liberalism. During that time we had much more active Democracies as our Governments served the people not the Oligarch few - particuarly given that this form of Government does not allow for Oligarchy a keen eye was kept to make sure Monopolies and Oligarchs did not exist. This system allowed Democracy and regulated Capitalism to work together - though clearly also allowed the possibility for regulation to be removed resulting in the situation we have today where our Governments serve Corporate Power and Oligarchs not the people.

    The Social Democratic countries in the West after WW2 were called 'Mixed economies'. Venezuela which they US has been trying to destroy was run under a mixed economy.

    The Scandanavian countries followed a form of social Democracy which many have recently been inclined to think of following.

    Unregulated Capitalism which we have not leads to the end of Democracy because our Governments serve it not the people and hence will lead to Totalitarianism.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
    Adfundum and a better world like this.
  8. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    I agree....Bernie election to president would chang the course of this country. It will change towards the direction of Venezuela. AKA: Hell.
     
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  9. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It may stop the US murdering the civilians of Venezuela through sanctions which it is using to try and get the resources of Venezuela away from the people of Venezuela and into the hands of American Capitalists - though I have a feeling he went along with this.

    My mentioning Venezuela being a mixed economy was simply to illustrate how the propaganda of 'socialism' is used by the United States to allow it to harm others. Venezuela's economic policy was not that different to that of the UK prior to Neo Liberalism.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
  10. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I suggest you look for posts on Venezuela on this site as obviously you are unaware of what is going on. Please to not suggest I am lying when I am not.
     
  11. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    Not saying YOU are lying. Saying wherever you got your "info" is lying to you.

    And while a forum can be a good place to get some info you need to take everything with a very large grain of salt.
     
  12. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Obviously.
     
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  13. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes you did

    I repeat, you are ignorant on this and dealing with your ignorance by calling other people liers.

    What did Chavez do that enraged the US so much they tried an unsuccessful coup on him. He nationalised the oil. Venezuela has the largest resources of oil on the planet. The US wanted control of them. If you even look back at what the likes of Bolton Pompeo, Pence and others were saying when they were trying to cause civil war in Venezuela they were at times quite up front about how much better it would be when the US had control of Venezuela's oil. Venezuela has a lot of other natural resources, gold diamonds and so on. There is no reason they would need to be poor if the US was not trying to starve them into giving their resources to the US - something Guaido was supposed to bring to the US when he arranged the next coup.

    I suggest you put in some work so that you know what has been going on rather than being abusive to others who have spent the time studying it. As I said before I only mentioned Venezuela because their system was a mixed economy not socialism as people like to say. In that it was syimilar to what the UK, Europe and I think the US also had to some extent before neo liberalism.
     
  14. BaghdadBob

    BaghdadBob Well-Known Member

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    :roflol: The author Chase Madar is a FAR LEFT civil rights lawyer with NO background in economics, but in your mind speaks for conservatives? :icon_picknose: :roflol:

    Chase Madar is an attorney, author, and journalist in New York. He is the author of The Passion of [Chelsea] Manning: The Story Behind the WikiLeaks Whistleblower (Verso, 2013) and a contributor to The New York Times, Guardian, London Review of Books, Le Monde Diplomatique, The Nation, The American Conservative, Jacobin, TomDispatch, Bookforum, and the Times Literary Supplement. He has lectured widely on law and society, from Oxford and Cambridge to Occupy Wall Street and the Mississippi State Capitol, and is a frequent participant in academic conferences and workshops on international law, criminal justice, and US foreign policy. He has translated one book each from French and Spanish and his own reporting has been translated into a dozen languages. A graduate of Stanford and NYU Law School, Madar was previously a staff attorney at Make the Road New York where he provided a wide variety of legal services to Spanish-speaking immigrants and carried out larger advocacy projects, including the first-ever empirical investigation into employment discrimination against transgender job-seekers. The most recent course he taught was a seminar on “Criminalization and Its Discontents” at Wallkill Correctional Facility through the NYU Prison Education Program. .
     
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  15. BaghdadBob

    BaghdadBob Well-Known Member

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    bernie is a communist, and doesn't mind being called one.

    bernie has also endorsed communists for office in the past.

    bernie is bad for humanity.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
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  16. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    According to their work, that's capitalism.. that's exactly what we do now.
     
  17. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    There is a difference between saying "that is a lie" and saying "you are lying" (which is what I would have had to say in order to call you a liar). One speaks to the statement. The other speaks to the person.



    Hmm...how about the multiple human rights violations of the articles he himself instituted by pressuring people to join the party he represented? And nationalizing the oil? He nationalized everything. Food, healthcare, housing, news media...everything. He even had a judge put under house arrest and stripped them of their bank accounts, social media, everything. All for letting a businessman out on bail. Or how about how he tried to implement his own coup, not once, but twice. Once before he became President and which he was arrested for. After two years he was released. And then once again while he was President. The only thing that stopped him from being successful was his own military commanders announced that they would not support him. The only thing that stopped him from being ultimately removed from power by his own government was that there were huge protests against the interim President Carmona. Or perhaps its how he courted Cuba and Iran?

    There are many reasons.
     
  18. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    By all means, embrace your inner coward.
     
  19. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    If one chooses to insert Venezuela's current economy as the result of socialism, one would be horribly remiss in not including the effects of many long years worth of US sanctions on today's Venezuelan economy in his calculations.
     
  20. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    :roflol:

    The Founding Fathers were SOCIALISTS in that they came up with a Single Payer Healthcare System for sailors.

    Why is it the KNEEJERK REACTION of the extremist right that "the nation is not ready" for a black/woman/gay/socialist/asian/hispanic/native american/whatever is NOT yet another white male?

    Time to FLUSH the BIGOTRIES of the PAST away and start recognizing that in a nation where everyone is EQUAL there is no reason NOT to have socialist or a gay or a woman in the Oval office.
     
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  21. Sleep Monster

    Sleep Monster Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Logical and reasonable, however ...

    There are millions of independent and moderate voters who are still susceptible to fear of socialism, which Trump's team can very easily stir up from an ember to a fire-nado. Especially older voters who remember the drills in school of crouching under your little school desk and covering your head with your arms (as if that would help in the event of a nuclear blast!). They still remember people building concrete underground shelters in backards and stocking them with a couple years' worth of canned food. To them, socialism = communism = evil and anti-American.

    I don't care what the polls show. If Sanders is the nominee, Trump wins. Polls showed Hillary winning by nearly double digits, didn't they? This is why Trump and company very much want it to be Bernie. This is why Trump went to such great lengths, and got impeached, for trying to dirty Biden. Trump would lose to a moderate.
     
  22. Smartmouthwoman

    Smartmouthwoman Bless your heart Past Donor

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    Truth is, Bernies had 40+ yrs to make a difference and hasn't done a damn thing. He's not only harmless, he's worthless.

    FB_IMG_1581708410478.jpg
     
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  23. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    Unbridled capitalism is incompatible with democratic processes.

    Unbridled capitalism means that, as Jimmy Carter noted a few years ago, this country is an oligarchy, a government of special interests, a fascist government.
     
  24. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Nothing in your post suggests that Chase Madar is "far left" - and Ad Hom fallacy is not an argument for much :)
     
  25. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Here we agree as well. He presents a difficult electability challenge in that the very demographic groups he soars with, are the most fickle and least historically dependable to show of faithfully, while those that Trump represents, are the opposite. If Bernie does not win over the older voter, the rural voter, and people of faith, he is probably not going to do the job because the black and Hispanic voters and women are not comfortable with him, let alone excited.
     
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