'How dare you': Greta Thunberg tears into world leaders over inaction at U.N. climate summit

Discussion in 'Environment & Conservation' started by Space_Time, Sep 23, 2019.

  1. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Er...people go into business for all sort of reasons that have NOTHING to do with money. Sometimes it pays well, sometimes it doesn't.

    When Bill Gates started fiddling around with computers, he followed his passion, not because he knew he would be subject to the same tax rate as his toilet cleaner. Indeed, Gates has consistently called for higher tax rates on big incomes.

    Admittedly, newly rich actors and film stars often like to escape high tax regimes; but even so they don't decide, at the beginning of their careers, to NOT pursue their passion.

    As you know, I don't WANT to be "fed" by producers of junk (in our junk consumer society); on the other hand I do want to see universal above poverty reward for contributing to community well-being, whether within private sector "invisible hand" markets, or within the public sector 'social value' sector.

    Have I answered your "incredibly important question" yet?


    Refuted above (in underlined section)
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2020
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  2. Space_Time

    Space_Time Well-Known Member

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    Intersectionality comes to climate change activism:

     
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  3. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    It will come from the productive, as usual. It just won't GO TO rich, greedy, privileged, rent seeking parasites any more.
    Of course I have. Many times.
    The policies we advocate won't kill -- indeed, will in fact encourage -- productive enterprise, and will only kill parasitic rent seeking "enterprise."
    Rent seekers don't feed anyone. They only steal what the productive produce.
     
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  4. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    You posted: "Pompeo in command of policy, a dangerous development for the world...." citing as the reason his Christian beliefs. Bigotry is not a particularly intelligent line of argument.

    Trump's Medicare spending rises every year in Trump's proposed budget, except for the last one in 2029 which is due to a calendar fluke that alters the timing of when Medicare pays its bills.

    Two hefty pieces of Medicare — extra payments to hospitals that serve a lot of uninsured patients and funds for teaching hospitals — weren't cut, but moved out of Medicare and into the regular general fund budget.

    Reducing over-payments to hospitals and other providers is not a reduction to Medicare patients.

    One example is his plan to make payments site-neutral. Currently, we pay much more for the same service when it's delivered in a hospital rather than in a doctor's office, even when there's no evidence the site of service makes any difference to the medicare patient. It's not a particularly honest argument to claim this is a "cut" to the medicare patient when they still receive the same service.

    This is expected to save $160 billion, according to the Health and Human Services Department. You might want to check these things before you make these claims.

    In 2009, researchers at the Dartmouth Center for Health Policy and Clinical Practice reported that "Higher spending does not result in better quality of care, whether one looks at the technical quality and reliability of hospital or ambulatory care, or survival following such serious conditions as a heart attack or hip fracture."

    Further, with Democrats running the House, Trump's budget has no chance of passage. That's typical for any presidential budget, and it's particularly true for this one. Your claim that Trump is "cutting Medicare" is as ungrounded in the real world as many of your other claims.
    Trump doesn't have the power to redistribute private production nor does he desire this power. Bernie's call for that power is the call for violent revolution. It's the call for one group to take by force what belongs to another. In our system, we collectively ensure our private property rights against such theft.
    Gibberish.
    You are conceding the point that Trump has done a very nice job of improving economic growth, but then it's undeniable.
    Average IS Mean
    Buzzword salad.

    In the current economy not only has unemployment hit 50 year lows, but we are seeing amazing gains in the bottom two quartiles of earners that can be summarized in 3 statements:

    1. Wage growth is truly stagnant only for workers in high-wage industries, such as medicine and consulting.
    2. Earnings growth for low-wage workers, such as those who work in retail and restaurants, has doubled in the past five years.
    3. Wages for the poorest Americans are rising twice as fast as hourly earnings for high-wage earners.
    Wage growth is currently strongest for workers in low-wage industries, such as clothing stores, supermarkets, amusement parks, and casinos. Earnings are growing most slowly in higher-wage industries, such as medical labs, law firms, and broadcasting and telecom companies.

    [​IMG]

    Goldman Sachs looked at data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics found growth for the bottom half of earners at its highest rate of the cycle. And even among that bottom half, the biggest gains are going to workers earning the least. A New York Times analysis of data from the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta found that wage growth among the lowest 25 percent of earners had exceeded the growth in every other quartile. Wages for low-income workers may be growing at their highest rate in 20 years.

    [​IMG]

    Yes, it was a one year spike within a 30 year down trend.

    [​IMG]


    Buzzword salad. In our system we collectively secure the natural rights OF THE INDIVIDUAL.
    You guys usually try harder to conceal your attack on individual liberty. Socialism always promises the "Brotherhood of Man" but those that suffer under it, at some point in desperation have to resort to eating their pets.

    Socialism: The Failed Idea that Never Dies. The progression goes:
    1. Avowed socialists set up brave new socialist world
    2. The wheels start to come off. This is blamed on “wreckers” and foreign agents. The economy seizes up. Eventually people starve and the gulags get set up.
    3. Socialists explain this was never a real socialist system in the first place
    The Krugman Variation:
    1. Socialists set out to win an election
    2. Recognizing the unpalatability of a socialist platform, socialists claim they actually only want to be “like Denmark or Sweden.”
    3. Socialists deny desirability of a thriving Nordic free market model that includes things like school choice in Sweden.
    4. Socialists unveil a platform that looks more like traditional socialism than anything currently on offer in Scandinavia.
    5. People who point out the discrepancy between 3 and 4 are vilified as supporting inequality, racism, etc.
    More buzzword salad.

    We have a natural human right:
    • to freely exchange our labor for goods, or to choose not to.
    • to lawfully acquire private property and to leave it to the heir(s) of our choice by will.
    • to secure ourselves and others from attack, theft and unjust confiscation.
    We The People established the Constitution to secure the blessings of Liberty for ourselves and our posterity. Your Socialist Utopian dreams are not for our Constitutionally secured society.

    In our system you have no right to attempt to impose YOUR dreams on others and you will be prevented from doing so. We pursue our OWN dreams, while respecting the inherent rights of others to pursue theirs.

    Of course you are also quite free to form voluntary associations with the like minded where you guys can let your Socialists Freak Flags fly, you simply cannot impose your dreams on others by force, that's all.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
  5. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    By bigotry I mean:
    "the fact of having and expressing strong, unreasonable beliefs".

    The world does not need people in charge who believe in a literal Armageddon,
    which is a fantasy of St. John's imagination (appearing in Revelation), written long after Christ's death.

    https://www.vox.com/2020/2/10/21131316/trump-2021-budget-entitlement-cuts

    Trump vowed to not cut Social Security and Medicare — hours before proposing just that

    "The president is either brazenly lying about his 2021 budget or doesn’t know what’s in it".

    But he sure liked introducing those $1.5 trillion tax cuts for the wealthy in 2017, and of course he doesn't want to change the distribution of the nation's income, because it's already skewed to the wealthy, while others sleep in the streets....

    Gibberish (see how that works?) The nation CAN afford to implement above poverty participation, in an economy that works for all, via a Job Guarantee. Do some research.

    <3% growth cf the promised 4%?

    But as I have already said, you are extremely fortunate Trump ignores mainstream deficit and debt mythology, otherwise the US would be in recession by now.


    Always happy to educate you:

    average wage is the sum of all wages divided by population; mean is the (lower) wage most people earn, a figure not distorted by the extremely high wages of a few at the top end, as is the case with the average wage figure.

    I have already pointed out wages growth is not the same as wage levels, and the minimum wage is still totally inadequate. Besides:


    https://www.thebalance.com/unemployment-rate-by-year-3305506

    The unemployment rate was lower in 1951 and 1952 (3.1 and 2.7; apart from the war years).

    Oh goody...…. a few more years and we wont see any more climate related catastrophes at all, according to that graph...



    Many of whom are living it the streets...something wrong with your definition of 'rights'

    You wouldn't know a human right if you fell over it; you're too busy maximising your own call on the nation's available resources.

    ..you missed out this bit:

    in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare.....

    ..general welfare which ought to include above poverty participation for all, in our time, when this is perfectly achievable in a mixed private - public economy.


    Implementing universal above poverty participation is NOT "imposing" anything.

    That you think it is, merely demonstrates you don't understand the policy choices available to a sovereign currency-issuing government....or you do understand and you deliberately choose to obcure the fact, so you can maximise your OWN call on the nation's resources.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2020
  6. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Anti-Christian bigotry aside, religious tests for public office are unconstitutional. Our fundamental freedoms keep getting in your way.
    No it isn't. Mean = average. Perhaps you intended "mode" which is the value that occurs most often.
     
  7. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Not anti-Christian , but anti-fundamentalist, as per the "Rapture", "Armageddon", and the "Third Temple".

    Yes we do have a problem when fundamentalists take charge, as in Iran, and now in the US, tearing up any pretence of impartial judge in the Palestine-Israel conflict. (Good luck with Trump's swiss-cheese proposal for Palestine).

    Obviously the founding fathers did not expect religious belief to impact foreign policy the way it does today.

    On fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism is responsible for peacemaker Rabin's murder (as per "Divine Right to the Promised Land"); Muslim fundamentalism, some of which is a reaction to US (and earlier, British) military presence in ME Muslim lands, is responsible for "terrorism"; and Christian fundamentalism both stokes Muslim fundamentalism and backs US veto of UN resolutions on Palestine.

    OK I'll go with "mode" (but a quick google soon reveals "mean" is also used); the point is "average wage" is a fraudulent figure in highly unequal societies like the US, because the astronomical "reward" at the top distorts the wage figure that most people earn.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2020
  8. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Greta (quite unintentionally) is the role-model for today's youth. (And especially amongst females.)

    She left "schooling" two years ago to do-what-she-had-to-do. And she has since returned to make up for lost time. Because she is no fool*.

    Greta lit a fire worldwide and its up to the kids - as they grow - to keep that fire glowing ...

    *And also medical reasons.
     
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  9. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps a government ministry of truth could make sure Christians renounce the parts of Christianity you don't support.
    You are the one that brought mean wages. And Mean = Average.
     
  10. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Mean = Average.

    EXPERTS ARE BAFFLED: Immigration to America is down. Wages are up. Are the two related?

    “IN BOTH 2018 and 2019 nominal wages rose by more than 3%, the fastest growth since before the recession a decade ago. Americans at the bottom of the labour market are doing especially well. In the past year the wages of those without a high-school diploma have risen by nearly 10%. Intriguingly, this has come as America has turned considerably less friendly to immigrants, who are assumed by many to steal jobs from natives and lower the wages of less-educated folk.”
    Those heavily invested in the myth of "failed free-markets" hardest hit.
     
  11. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    1) That is literally ridiculous. No one .. ever, anywhere, engages in enterprise without the primary driver being money. Show us one example of a private enterprise which does not engage in profit seeking. Just one.

    2) Bill Gates is one of the richest people on the planet. You could not possibly have picked a worse example of 'non-profityness'.

    3) You want large sectors of society fed and housed, period - whether they earn it or not. That requires the massive profits of capitalism. There is no other way to achieve that master/slave relationship you're actually shooting for - wherein the productive earners become slaves to the unproductive masters. Because that IS how any attempt to 'redistribute' will play out, human nature being what it is. Unless you're planning to force people to work. Are you?

    4) Words on a page refute nothing. How you live your life away from your computer is the only reality. You live the same private, individualist, capitalist life that the fake socialists live, and that's where the buck stops. Nothing you say will erase that reality.
     
  12. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Is she? How many of them (and their profligate middle class parents) have given up consumerism/travel etc?
     
  13. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    1) So 'the productive' will make the same billions that the current rich do, but because they're magically saintlike, they'll give it all away? Please explain exactly how it will work. Let's say the thousand employees of a multi-billion a year corporation just divide up those billions. Now you have a thousand millionaires. Let's say 80% of those millionaires will seek to increase that income via 'rent seeking' - because that's what humans do (that's what ALL animals do - in the interests of more territory thus more survival for their pack). Now what?

    2) No, your policies will kill enterprise stone dead. Look forward to small scale subsistence farming in your future.

    3) See 1) re: that extra thousand millionaire rent seekers you've introduced into society.
     
  14. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Apparently another term for 'mode' is 'median'; anyway, my substantive point stands.



    Experts baffled?

    Obviously, immigrants DO 'steal' (better: compete for) a given number of jobs from locals across the wage range (until the job market changes); but they DO NOT necessarily lower the wages of "less-educated folk", because they often take up those low paying roles themselves, jobs which the locals are often averse to taking.

    ….


    But market failure IS catastrophic in this case:

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04...ment-maybe-heading-from-boom-to-bust/11041964

    Renewable energy investment looks to be going from boom to bust as prices collapse

    By business reporter Stephen Letts
    Updated 26 Apr 2019, 10:13am

    Energy prices collapse....so we can't 'afford' to continue the investment in green energy (!)...the ultimate example of market failure, and a case where the industry should be nationalised.

    That's one reason why the BIS recently said "central banks might have to buy the coal industry" if financial losses due to climate-related catastrophes keep inceasing. [You might not believe it, but the world's insurance companies are certainly worried...)
     
  15. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    No, they'll spend it, invest it, and no doubt give some away.
    People will get to keep what they produce and not be robbed by rent seekers or tax collectors. They will be free to spend, invest, or give their rightly earned money away, and production will be greater because labor will no longer be wasted on rent seeking.
    That's not how it works. Everyone benefits. Only the richest, greediest, most parasitic 1% would lose more than they benefit.
    They can't. Humans also liked to own slaves, but once they couldn't, they thought of other things to do.
    <yawn> As it has in Hong Kong....? You have not explained a mechanism whereby any such thing could happen, nor will you ever be doing so.
    More garbage with no basis in fact. Indeed, contrary to known fact.
    Do you think emancipating slaves just created more slave owners? You need to stop typing and start thinking.
     
  16. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    1) How in heck can you possibly know what they'll do with it? And INVEST means rent seeking, for many people.

    2) So they'll get to keep the widgets they made at the factory? What are you talking about?

    3) How DOES it work? Explain precisely, please.

    4) They can't what? Rent seek? You just watch them.

    5) The laws of the land in any given moment are the only barriers to 'rent seeking' behaviours. Since it's still legal to rent seek, then that's exactly what you'll get - just as soon as you start paying people enough to enable 'investment', as per your own proposal above.
     
  17. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    That's what they do with what they have now. DUH.
    But it won't if there are no rents to seek.
    The value of their contributions thereto.
    Consensual exchange.
    Everyone pays for what they take, and gets back the value they contribute.
    How are they going to do it?
    No. The laws of the land are the only things that ENABLE rent seeking behavior.
    The only way to obtain rent is by legally depriving others of access to economic opportunity that would otherwise be accessible, without making just compensation. If that is not enabled by law, there is no rent to seek.
     
  18. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Blimey we can certainly see how money rules your....deprived.... world.

    Artists have been passionately creating art and music since the beginning of time, NOTHING to do with money (of course IF the art was rewarded in money terms, artists could then escape from their usually merely tolerated day job...)

    See above; your limited consciousness of life's all encompassing gifts (beyond money) is the reason you make that statement.

    [/QUOTE]You want large sectors of society fed and housed, period - whether they earn it or not. That requires the massive profits of capitalism. There is no other way to achieve that master/slave relationship you're actually shooting for - wherein the productive earners become slaves to the unproductive masters. Because that IS how any attempt to 'redistribute' will play out, human nature being what it is. Unless you're planning to force people to work. Are you?[/QUOTE]

    All ideology based-nonsense (everyone has something to contribute), and addressed above: "the best things in life are free"; and cannot be measured in terms of money, though your reply will only confirm the paucity of your imagination.
     
  19. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    No it isn't. You posted a claim about MEAN wages, which I refuted, also using MEAN wages. You have been dancing ever since.
    Mean = AVERAGE
    Mode = Most Frequent Value
    Median = The Middle Value
    Yet, when ICE raids, those jobs don't remain vacant, they are promptly filled by job applicants who are in the country legally.
    If it was "successful" it wouldn't be collapsing. You want it "nationalized" so that insider cronies can ram it down the throat of an unwilling public. It's always force and Rent Seeking with you folks. The nice smiles, the great promises, but behind the scenes you are reaching for the whip.
    They aren't.

    [​IMG]

    You want the Central Banks to buy up all the coal, so you can take it off the market and force folks to buy more expensive "Green Power" which by the way, are landfill nightmares.

    Learn to clean up after yourselves and improve efficiency. Don't try to cheat your way through coercion. You don't have the right to boss other folks around. Ponder that. Respect the rights of your fellow citizens. Quit trying to convince yourself that you are their superior.​
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
  20. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    1) And they rent seek now.
    2) How can there be no rent to seek, in a democracy?
    3) You mean wages? Yeah, that's already been invented.
    4) Consensual as in all exchanges being voluntary? Yeah, we already have that.
    5) So ... we'll have to pay for stuff we want. Just as we already do. Genius!
    6) Yes, it's called democracy. If you want to continue being free to engage in your armchair philosophising, you'll want to hang on to it.
    7) You cannot 'deprive' someone who has VOLUNTEERED to pay you rent.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
  21. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    1) O.M.G could you (and Reivs) possibly be any more Ivory Towerist. ARTISTS are your example of non-profit seeking businesses? You should be embarrassed.

    2) Ask a starving African or street sleeping Bangladeshi what value 'imagination' has. It's a long way down from the top of you tower, so you'll need to shout.
     
  22. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Because rents are available. They don't buy slaves because slaves are not available. If rents were not available, they would no more seek rents than they buy slaves.

    GET IT???
    If government does not create rent collection privileges, there are no rents to seek.
    But those who earn them are currently robbed of them by government through taxation and by the privileged through rents.
    No, we most certainly and indisputably do not. What an absurd and fatuous claim. Do we consent to pay income tax? Do we consent to be stripped of our rights by rich, greedy, privileged parasites with their rent collection privileges?

    Give your head a shake.
    No, we currently have to pay for stuff we don't want, because government and the privileged force us to. We also have to pay for stuff we want, but would have without paying if we had not been forcibly deprived of it.
    Yes, well, until a few hundred years ago, "democracy" enabled slavery. It's a work in progress, and our democracies could certainly be doing much better than they are.
    What load of absurd, deceitful, disingenuous garbage. People don't "volunteer" to pay rent for permission to exercise their rights to liberty. They pay it because they have already been forcibly stripped of their rights to liberty, and it's pay or go homeless. You could with equal logic -- and morality -- claim that slaves could not have been deprived of their rights to liberty because they VOLUNTEERED to pay their owners for them. It's just self-evidently evil, disingenuous filth.
     
  23. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Just admit you're keen on totalitarianism. Will save us both a lot of time.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
  24. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    You post this Straw Dog frequently. Have you somehow been taken with the idea that libertarians and free marketeers have been running the show in Washington?

    One of the great things about advanced democracies is that lots of different approaches and ideas are competing none of them ever fully succeeds in driving all the competing systems out. Even when one faction dominates for a time, before long they overreach, atrophy or just lose their hunger. You want monopolistic conditions because you are seeing the inevitable necessary market crash in mal-investments in "green" technology, when the setback for the error is exactly what is needed for these investors to learn from the experience. Monopolies cannot long endure without being protected by the whip of the State. Monopolies destroy themselves by failing to innovate.

    What we need to be on guard against in the present situation is an exploitative managerial society where a bunch of self-righteous arrogant folks who are over endowed with smugness and pathetically short on talent reach for the power of the State so they may establish coercive control over and force us to pursue their foolish fantasies.

    The current crop of clowns eager to take the reins of government planning work against the Straw Dog that they are merely trying to contain “unfettered capitalism.” We don't have unfettered capitalism, we have heavily fettered cronyism with various factions vying for control.

    You build this illusion of a mythical dragon consuming us, which you will "rescue" us from just as soon as you have the power of government to "fight" it. We have no need of that, all we need is sensibly regulated free markets that allow US to freely exchange our goods and labor, as we see fit, and the freedom to pursue our own aspirations and dreams. You are free to do the same.

    The Market is the arena where we exercise a great number of our liberties and rights. We are free to pursue our own happiness as are those we share our society with. The government has a sensible regulative role, as needed, to govern our interactions with one another. When the State does intervene, it is in pursuit of a listed goal within their chartering constitution and they must accomplish this goal in the least intrusive manner possible.

    Beware the Master Planners, they want to steal your Freedom and Liberty. They urge you trade your birthright for the temporary gratification of a passing convenience. Never fall for the myth that "experts" in some office in Washington, Moscow, or Berlin can better define, dictate, and anticipate the wants, needs and desires of millions of people and thousands of communities across our vast nation that we can ourselves. They will fail in that task while "succeeding" in trampling our Freedom and Liberty.

    These smug planners cannot out-think markets or provide more information than what we find in prices. That is why you are moaning the pending losses in Green Investments and yearning for monopoly power so that you can stave off the inevitable. Do not avoid embracing your failure. Coercive power is like a 4 wheel drive vehicle, it simply allows you to go deeper into the woods before you get completely and hopelessly stuck.
     
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  25. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    People who create things that other people desire (to see ,hear,or touch) are examples of activity driven by passion, NOT money.

    [QUOTE[Ask a starving African or street sleeping Bangladeshi what value 'imagination' has. It's a long way down from the top of you tower, so you'll need to shout.[/QUOTE]

    Back to your obsession with the bottom, as an escape route for your flawed and duplicitous ideology designed to maintain the top.
     

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