If "Our Creator" endowed us with rights...

Yes it is evil and against God to eat babies, ...did I say different?

But I wouldn't know that unless I was taught.

 

Really? When it comes to being wrong, at least you are consistent.

Our original colonies were under the jurisdiction of Great Britain. The distance between us and King George allowed for us to grow and develop. ONE of the many reasons for our separation with King George was "For taking away our Charters." You really should try reading some of those Charters. Find out what the Brits didn't like about what was happening in the colonies.

Next, you will not find the word democracy in the Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation or the Constitution of the United States. You will find it, denounced in no uncertain terms in the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers both by name and by definition. Article 4 Section 4 of the United States states:

"The United States shall guarantee to every state in this Union a Republican Form of Government"

In the period before Adamic man, people practiced cannibalism, child sacrifice, and other things we would find abhorrent by any metric in today's societies. The descendants of Abraham had a specific destiny:

"1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3 and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." Genesis 12: 1 - 3

One of the many Marks of Israel that points toward the United States is that the founders / framers were still in tune with their identity. Not so much today, despite fulfilling this prophecy. Let me share a quote with you:

"... the United States still tops the chart by far in terms of total missionaries, sending 127,000 in 2010 compared to the 34,000 sent by No. 2-ranked Brazil...."

https://www.christianitytoday.com/n...ntries-sent-received-csgc-gordon-conwell.html

It's pretty much been that way since the first missionaries were ever sent from the United States. As long as the people of the United States were in obedience to God's laws, they have been blessed above the people of all other nations. Our blessings have been proportional to our willingness to follow the commands of God. Still the Bible says:

"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty." II Corinthians 3 : 17

Most of the founders / framers were Christians. So it stands to reason that their definition of Liberty was predicated upon biblical precepts. I mean who, in their right mind, helps create a form of government that is antithetical to their core values as a people? They did not seek a theocracy; they had escaped that, but it would take years of abuse and multiple oppressions for the colonists to separate from the tyranny of King George and create a new form of government that guaranteed individual Liberty.

I don't do multi quotes. I only saw your beginning and the end. Your first paragraph was so full of errors that your eyes would glaze over before I could complete the thought. Bottom line: The United States is the ONLY country on the planet that put in their Constitution that you had Rights that were above the reach of government, then guaranteed them. Again, it must be noted that China, North Korea, South Korea and Japan all have homogeneous societies and there is nothing inherently evil about it.

Unlike the aforementioned countries, the United States is the only one of those founded with the intent of being homogeneous AND welcoming in strangers as guests.

Your last paragraph is consistent with your inability to be able to read and interpret. "Youth pastor?": In my eariler years I was in a denominational church, studied theology and became pastor in my 20s. Went back to school and studied law. At 60, I went back to school and got another degree in theology. I also used to be on a local speakers bureau and talked to groups about history. I have a tad over four decades of relevant professional work history upon which to draw from.

The reason that the United States was built around what you call segregation is due to the simple fact that the colonists saw themselves as the Israelites of the Bible and this was the New Jerusalem. Americans have no problem with mainstream misidentifying God's elect, so you will continue to ad hom me with accusations of racism and trying to convince us that it's legitimate to fight for the Jews Right to self determination - even take lands to which they are not entitled and deny to others that same consideration. And I've never stepped on another man's back to make my life better or practice the dictates of my conscience. Mainstream with their Middle East policy cannot make the same claim - and yet some people seem to be more equal, even among those who publicly profess to be unbelievers.

I'm not asking you to believe anything, but this sermon has been quoted from for close to 4 centuries. It gives you a good indication why America was founded as a white country:

https://www.casa-arts.org/cms/lib/PA01925203/Centricity/Domain/50/A Model of Christian Charity.pdf

BTW, the computer scrolled, so how is it we're back to slavery if you didn't want to talk about it? You talk about what you want to talk about it and then tell me that is not what this thread is about. Don't tell me to not mention it next time. I told you, if you drop it, I will. For someone that don't want to talk about it, you sure spend a lot of time forcing the issue. Now do you have AN issue instead of this shotgun criticism and discussing subject matter you took off the table?

 

If their theories of liberty were based on biblical precepts (and, again, there are many ways in which their theories of liberty contradict the Bible) then why did it take Christians over a millennium and a half to develop these ideas?

 

Wrong.

You are making a false claim to having read history. The Declaration of Independence established the United States of America followed by a formal vote by the First Continental Congress in September of 1776. One of the many reasons we went to war was due to the fact (according to the Declaration of Independence) was "For taking away our Charters." If you would examine those Charters, you would find how erroneous your beliefs really are.

https://books.google.com/books?
id=5MzODwAAQBAJ&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=christian+colonial+charters&source=bl&ots=UYKfucJsK9&sig=ACfU3U21D5xOYRhmZ89wM8XzOfMyUUXK0A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi1v9OngL_pAhXRct8KHRwECa0Q6AEwDHoECCAQAQ#v=onepage&q=christian%20colonial%20charters&f=false Take a look at page 4

In the Declaration of Independence the word Creator is capitalized, signifying that the premise is built upon a supreme Deity. Other terminology is Divine Providence, Nature's God., etc. We went to war over the issue and you will deny it. PREDICTION: Your next argument will be logical fallacy that we're arguing over a theocracy.

 

The prophecies of the Bible come in due time according to the will of God. It does not say how long, why nor how.

 

Many of the prophecies have already failed, nor did anything I said have anything to do with prophecies. Read the post if you are going to respond to it.

 

No prophecy has failed. Man's interpretation has been wrong. I read your post; you simply rejected the response.

We could not achieve Liberty until the elect regathered into a New Jerusalem and established it.

 

That doesn't counter anything I said. In fact, you don't even address the issue of rights.

Again, this doesn't address anything about rights. And, we absolutely ARE a democratic nation. We make our decisions on leaders by voting for representatives and for the president. We certainly aren't the largest democracy, but we are a democratic nation.

Your Bible quotes don't have anything to do with rights.

Back then, God helped and rewarded Israelites for slaughting tens of thousands of Midianites, includng men, women, prisoners and children. Only virgin girls were saved by the victorious Isralites to divide between the generals.

Go helped and rewarded Isaraelites to slaughter even man, woman, child and animal in Jericho - because, Israelites wanted their lands. And, they wanted to impress on other nearby citystates that they must surrender or be slaughtered (and they did surrender) - an early demonstration of abject terrorism.

I have NO idea what youre trying to prove with comments about canibalism. There have been HUGE numbers of societies that haven't been canibals. Modern Christianity is by FAR not the only nation that doesn't eat babies.

Let's also remember that the Bible is totally accepting of slavery. Thus, it was not hard for slavery to exist in the USA for so many years after the constitution was written. Thus it is easy for white supremecists and segregationists to continue to TODAY!!

And, the fact that we are a majority Christian nation is certainly true, but in the US, Government is not allowed to express a religious opinion or base decisions on purely religious grounds.

And, THAT is why we have rights.

 

Can you name any countries without Christian majorities that allow the eating of babies now or into centuries BC?

 

good points..

Without the Creator, there is no America. I covered this in a thread sometime back:

http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/america-predicated-on-a-creator.564596/

 

Your cite points out that the charter was oriented to using government to "protect" Christianity - NOT to establish rights such as the right to ones own religious beliefs, no more or less affected by governmnent than any other such beliefs.

Puritans stood for having a single national church. They came to America when they couldnt't "fix" the Church of England. For various reasons they saw it as intollerable that the state religion was not THEIR religion.

In the US, they could develop a society based on THEIR religion. That included declarig Christmas to be illegal - evidence of their rejection of religious freedom.

 

Yes, you would. Unless you are a psychopath. Are you a psychopath?

 

Incompetent, irrelevant, wrong at every level and I don't respond to multi quotes. The Shotgun Argumentation Fallacy seems to be the only thing you're competent at. Do you have AN issue you want to discuss? OR are you going to keep saying we are not going to talk about slavery, but you'll bring it up in every response? Some of your stuff was pure, outright, unadulterated LIES and misrepresentations regarding my post. SHAME ON YOU.

 

That is what is known as a straw man argument. What are you so afraid of?

 

. . . do you know what a straw man argument is? It appears not. This is a counterargument, not a straw man. And one which you apparently can't address. What are you so afraid of?

 

The Charters do not attempt to establish Rights and had you actually READ the many things I have posted here, government does not grant Rights. Government protects Rights. The Declaration of Independence states, unequivocally, the presupposition that Rights are bestowed upon you by a Creator. It does not mean you have to believe in God to accept the premise that the Right is unalienable. The men who signed the Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation, and the Constitution had two things in common: they were white and virtually all of them accepted Christian precepts. NO Christian would have signed the Declaration of Independence if some deity other than a Christian God was listed as a Creator that bestowed Rights upon men.

Common sense tells us that if the signers agreed with that presupposition, they could back it up with a biblical precept. You expect people to believe that the founders signed an important document that put their very LIFE on the chopping block that contradicts their religious presuppositions. You've resorted to multi - quotes, hoping the casual reader will take the easy out and say TLDR; you've tried several forms of fallacies; you have misrepresented my position (and I suspect that of others) and now you think people should believe something that the word preposterous don't begin to cover.

 

LOL!! You just can't help depending on ad hom as your only argument.

We can all use slavery as an indication of something, but one can be without our constitutional rights without being a slave. There is a big difference. Not being a slave doesn't mean you have rights of speech, religion, etc.

The issue is rights as per the OP.

To me, the idea of religious freedom coming from Christianity defies history. It suggests that after 1500 years of Christianity denying religious freedom, America declared religious freedom - so it must have come from Christianity(???)

Again, the Bible is about duty, not about rights. We should not be judging Christianity on it's record on rights, because that is not what the Bible is about.

 

Where can I find a religious tradition with a God who respects, and has always respected, these rights? Maybe Deism?

 

If this thread is about Rights and not about slavery, how come you're the only one allowed to keep harping on it?

 

How dare he harp about rights in a thread about rights! Preposterous! PREPOSTEROUS!

 

God does not have to respect that which he bestows upon you. If I hand you a gift, it should mean something to you, not necessarily me. We've covered one of your Rights out of the Bill of Rights and its connection to the Bible. Read the thread for crying out loud.

 

I'm glad you agree that God-given rights and inalienable rights are mutually exclusive. That's part of the flaw in trying to ground rights in the God of the Bible. Again, glad we agree.

 

Yes, humans aren't constructed such that they can be satisisfied to be without certain rights. I agree.

But, I don't see a slave as having rights - from ANY source.

I also don't see those slaughtered in the various inquisitions as having had rights - certainly not religious rights.

I don't see those living in pre-America England as having rights of religion. People left England because they WANTED religious rights, not because the HAD religious rights.

This idea that a human HAS a right when they can be executed for exercising that right does't make any sense. You don't have a right if expressing that right means you DIE (or just get imprisoned).

Those in China do not have rights of speech like we do. Nobody claims that people in China have rights of religion - ask Muslims. Ask the scientist who may have been "disapeared" for having spoken about COVID too much.

(If you want to accuse me of something, you need to identify it. Just claiming that some unidentified statement was wrong in some unspecified way is no better than ad hom.)

 

You claimed Christianity is unique in terms of its support of certain rights.

I'm asking you to show some sort of evidence of that.

That's not a strawman.

 

NO. And, I'd prefer that you stick to what I say rather than making assumptions.

I don't see religious freedom (which requires separation of government and religion) as being counter to the Bible.

And, it's pretty clear that our founders didn't, either.

Do YOU think it's a problem that our founders separated government and religion?