The Confederate battle flag

The Confederacy was founded on slavery. Explicitly. They left our nation in order to further and preserve slavery. They founded a new nation in the name of slavery. You can fly Old Glory to symbolize a lot more than just slavery. If you are flying Confederate symbols, your only options are to celebrate slavery or to engage in historical revisionism.

 

Taking something that is offensive to some and making it offensive to no one would seem to be a wise move. Do you disagree?

 

The USA did not declare independence in order to protect slavery. The CSA did. The USA did not create a new country for the purpose of protecting slavery. The CSA did. The CSA only lasted for ~4 years, and it was wholly dedicated to slavery for the entirety of that time.

Yes. There was more to the USA's cause than slavery.

Again, the only people I see calling for the erasure of history in this case are the Confederate apologists, not the SJWs.

You can fly the flag of the USA in order to celebrate something other than genocide and slavery. You can only do so for the Confederacy if you are erasing history.

 

Wrong, that flag will always mean genocide and stolen land to Native Americans.

 

The Confederacy was founded upon a strong desire for states' rights. But here is where it gets a bit tricky.

I am a strong advocate of states' rights--usually. But when that "right" is the right to own another human being, well, I demur.

Why do you imagine that the Northern states were opposed, on principle, to slavery? (Even Lincoln did not show any opposition to slavery until 1863--midway through the war--and then he proposed only to abolish slavery in those states which were "in rebellion" against the Union--while letting the practice stand elsewhere.)

This would be quite true--if one were to agree that the Confederacy was formed merely to promulgate the (horrid!) institution of slavery.

But I dispute the premise.

 

The USA was not founded for the express purpose of killing Native Americans. The Confederacy was founded for the express purpose of slavery. The USA did not leave England in order to preserve the "right" to kill Native Americans. The Confederacy rebelled against our country for the express purpose of preserving slavery.

The only side trying to destroy history is yours.

 

They only "states' rights" they were concerned about were "rights" involving slavery.

This is an outright fabrication. Lincoln showed opposition to slavery from them moment he entered political life. He wanted to get there through moderate means, through compensated emancipation, but he was personally against slavery from the beginning of his political life.

Regardless, trying to change the subject to the North won't work. We were talking about the motives of the South. The South, in their own words, saw Lincoln and his party as a threat to the institution of slavery. Whether you think they were correct in that concern or not doesn't matter. This was their concern. This concern lead to their secession. They said so.

According to their own words, that was their primary purpose.

And the words of the Confederacy dispute your premise.

Why is your modern reimagining of their purposes a better source than what they had to say about themselves?

 

I disagree. Yes, sometimes offense is taken when not intended, but generally it is intended, and the choice is to let it bother you or shrug it off. Most adults learn to shrug it off, but there are limits to what we should be expected to endure. Make it personal; how many times would you accept insults, or other offensive remarks or behavior from your boss before taking it to corporate? We don't always have the luxury of choice.

It's a free country, and people can fly Confederate colors all they want. Others can choose to be offended or not. However, government imagery should represent all people, so the time has come for the removal of Confederate symbolism.

 

I guess you have never read the Confederate Constitution or read a book on the history of the Confederacy. It was far more than that one issue.

 

I have. The biggest changes involved slavery. The CSA Constitution was almost word-for-word a copy of the US Constitution, with the most considerable changes being additions to protect slavery. Read it for yourself, then consult the Vice President of the Confederacy, who admitted that this was the most important change.

I prefer primary sources not "Buh . . . buh . . . my teacher told me!!!" I read sources from the time period, not what my handlers command me to believe.

I've read every primary source I can get my hands on. The Declarations of Causes primarily point to slavery. The Cornerstone Speech primarily points to slavery. The letters of the secession commissioners primarily point to slavery. The Crittenden Compromise primarily points to slavery. Every primary source I can find that gets into specifics primarily points to slavery.

Sorry, but if you want to talk about historical sources, you are way out of your league here.

 

OK, without Google their Constitution called for how many terms and years in office for the President? No google cheating. Dont get "out of your league" here. Go!

 

I don't need to Google it. I have a paper copy. Funny how none of the Declarations of Causes mentioned number of terms/years for a President. Funny how it never came up in discussions of secession. Funny how it was never part of any proposed compromise. Yet slavery somehow entered into all of these things. Funny how the CSA focused their Presidential complaints on Lincoln . . . whom they accused of being a radical abolitionist. Hm, wonder why that is?

Also, funny how the seceding states referred to themselves as "the slaveholding states" and not the "maybe shorter terms for presidents states" and funny how they weren't advocating for shorter terms until they lost. All really funny.

But don't let me interrupt your attempts to re-write history. You were saying?

 

Politics and ethics are linked; I tend to support positions I find ethical, like banning child pornography. This was why I phrased it as a political issue rather than an ethical one.

That you have misunderstood my post is probably a consequence of poor communication on my part and I will strive to do better in the future.

 

I already proved it. I don't need to report anything to do so. If you find it offensive. Then report it. I won't care either way.

 

Or maybe they just associate it with something other than what you do? It doesn't have to have anything to do with ignorance or revisionism. Just because they may have a different POV doesn't mean that they're ignorant or trying to revise history. Perhaps you're just ignorant of what they believe and/or know?

 

The flag is an expression of words. Whether you want to acknowledge that or not is not my problem. And I never said that I could never be offended. I'm just never offended by WORDS.

No, you're explaining what it means to you. Others know full well the history of it. That doesn't mean that that history is why they fly it. All you're doing is attributing something to them when you don't know jack about them. People are not monoliths. They are allowed to have their own thoughts and assign their own meanings to things. You have no right to assign a meaning to their own meanings.

 

Yeah...pretty sure that the blacks that support the confederate flag are not ignorant of its history or trying to revise history. Want to try again?

 

They do! I've admitted this. But they do so out of historical revisionism.

When their "POV" disagrees with history, and it does, then that makes their "POV" historical revisionism.

I don't know how you could possibly disagree with this truth, but it remains the truth: Your are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

I understand what they believe. What the believe, however, is contrary to history. Not sure what you aren't grasping here.

 

Except of course that there IS a confederate flag of today. And to many it does not represent slavery or the confederacy of old. Who are you to tell people what to think of a flag?

 

No need to try again. The Confederacy stood for slavery and white supremacy. They said so. Repeatedly. Anyone saying otherwise, no matter what their skin color, is revising history. Period. Again, where am I losing you?

 

What's Trump got to do with this? Oh right, nothing. Yours is just a deflection because you couldn't bring yourself to back up your own words.

 

There is no Confederacy today. If you fly a Confederate flag, you are either celebrating the historical Confederacy or you are engaging in historical revisionism and trying to make the flag represent something else. Get it now?

Yes! I've said as much. That makes them either historically ignorant or historical revisionists. Get it now?

Translation: History offends you, so you would rather rewrite it. I disagree with your premise.

 

Sure, which is why if you actually talked to many that wave the confederate flag you would know that they don't wave it because of what it stood for 100+ years ago. They have their own reasons. None of which includes racism. Maybe if people actually talked to those that own the flag they would come to realize that it no longer represents what it did during the civil war to many people.

 

Wrong, it calls for ONE 6 year term. So much for your "vast" knowledge of the Confederacy. Dont quit your day job.

 

If you want to fly the flag of a nation that died more than 100 years ago, then you are either celebrating a nation from more than 100 years ago or you are engaging in historical revisionism.