I’m curious about who still practices their faith.

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by cirdellin, Jul 16, 2020.

  1. cirdellin

    cirdellin Banned

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    My experience is that atheists tend to be angry and are working through some bad experience with people of faith. I was trained in science and if something can not be measured or disproved empirically such a phenomenon can not be said to exist or not to exist.

    “Faith is the evidence of things not seen” according to the apostle Paul. Whatever that’s supposed to mean.
     
  2. Curious Always

    Curious Always Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have a friend who was raised as a Jehovah's Witness. She left, and her family has shunned her, since. She hasn't spoken to her parents in 20 years. She's pretty confident that if there is a god, that's not what he/she wants, and if that is what god wants, he/she is not worthy of worship. She's 100% convinced that neither of those things can be true. She's now atheist.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
  3. cirdellin

    cirdellin Banned

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    @Curious Always
    I had the bizarre experience of living for a short time with Jehovah’s witnesses who also happened to be Mexican and found them to be as intolerant as the Baptists and Mormons. The only faith I found to be close to tolerant were the Buddhists but their belief system is always cagey on too many things like reincarnation for example. Sounds like your friend is correctly angry with her religious experience. If I were her I would tell people that I don’t know if there is a god or not so give me proof or shut up. But I have little patience with people.

    This is the quotation I use the most commonly:


    “Concerning the gods I am not in a position to know either that they are or that they are not, or what they are like in appearance; for there are many things that are preventing knowledge, the obscurity of the matter and the brevity of human life. “


    Protagoras
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
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  4. cirdellin

    cirdellin Banned

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    I hate to be repetitive but this question was amply answered millennia ago and no one can improve upon it because it is so profound!!

    “Concerning the gods I am not in a position to know either that they are or that they are not, or what they are like in appearance; for there are many things that are preventing knowledge, the obscurity of the matter and the brevity of human life. “


    Protagoras
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
  5. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thanks for the quote as I was unaware of this ancient Greek saying the obvious!

    I like the Taoist take... He who says he knows does not know.
     
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  6. cirdellin

    cirdellin Banned

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    I like that too.
    I don’t know the final truth but I think I know enough to make intelligent decisions on what I know to be true enough.
     
  7. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Your New Testament is a translation of the New Testament and it is written in the Modern Greek alphabet. It is a fake.
     
  8. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is no modern Greek alphabet, it's the same as it always was. It's also the same New Testament, and also the same Old Testament. It was translated into Greek by Rabbis in Alexandria before Christ and it was considered a miracle, because all of the 70 Rabbis translated it exactly the same way.

    This doesn't mean the Greek spoken today is the same as it was. That would be ridiculous, languages change very quickly and from area to area.
     
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  9. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but you don't know Greek from a banana. There are 8 Greek alphabets = https://www.quora.com/How-many-letters-are-in-the-Greek-alphabet

    You are looking at the Modern Greek in your book, which is written left to right, instead of boustrophedon like earlier Greek alphabets. Further, all of your verses and chapters are numbered just like other Bible versions. That itself should tell you that your version is a fake.
     
  10. Cougarbear

    Cougarbear Banned

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    I was Jewish and now I'm a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I've been a member for 43 years now and glad I converted. I'm completely satisfied with my decision and continue to go to Church and participate in the Temple when I can. Of course, we aren't able to attend now due to COVID19 China virus. I find it interesting that people go around looking for something that fits their lifestyle, ignorance, sinful life so they can continue down those paths. Instead of aligning with the truth of Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior and trust in Him, keep his commandments and the covenants made at baptism and in the Temple.
     
  11. Cougarbear

    Cougarbear Banned

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    Why do you want to know? Billions around the world still do. Good grief, "who still attends a church, mosque or temple."
     
  12. cirdellin

    cirdellin Banned

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    I left the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints after learning of Joseph Smith’s grifting and then of their murdering and the cover up after the mountain meadows massacre. 130 men, women and children. My Bishop told me that the murdered deserved it because they were bad mouthing the Church. Then there is this from Brigham Young who was likely one of the most hateful people in history. I’m not trying to be argumentative but how can these words come from a man of God?

    “You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, un- comely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race – that they should be the “servant of servants;” and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, [p.291] and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam’s children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed.When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion. “- JoD 7:290-291 (October 9, 1859) Brigham Young
     
  13. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This is from Wikipedia:

    - by the end of the fourth century BC, the Euclidean alphabet, with twenty-four letters, ordered from alpha to omega, had become standard and it is this version that is still used to write Greek today.
    So even though the language changed from Archaic Greek to Classical Greek and then to Hellenistic (Koine) Greek, the same alphabet was used for 2,300 years - and it's still being used today in the spoken demotic (everyday) Greek, in Church Greek, and in katharevousa which is pure Greek without foreign words.



    No, it tells me that all the other Bibles were copied from the original Greek - which they were. The original New Testament was written in Hellenistic Greek.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
  14. Cougarbear

    Cougarbear Banned

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    The cover up of Mountain Medows MM? By who? Those that were involved, of course. The Church didn't cover it up. It happened. However, you have obviously not done your homework on the subject. The time, 1857. No internet, phones, Iphones, emails, jet planes and so on. Communication took days and sometimes weeks to arrive. Brigham Young had previously issued a Martial Law order for the territory of Utah, having nothing to do with the people killed at MM. He did issue in that order that those who wish to travel through the territory were to get prior approval. However, as I mentioned, communications weren't at our capabilities in 2020. It's doubtful the people in the caravan knew about the Martial Law. It's also noted that the Mormons in the area of MM did not know where the caravan was necessarily coming from as well. There is evidence the caravan had told people they were from Missouri where the Hanns's Mill massacre of Mormons took place by the people of Missouri. Put yourself in the shoes of those people, on both sides. Parley P Pratt had recently been murdered by people in Arkansas where the caravan originated from. Different times. Different solutions as well in the old west. There was no organized police departments with all the regulations Police have today. To judge the people in past times by our standards today is purely rubbish. The same with respect to race. The Church Leaders several years ago put to rest the MM massacre and made peace with the descendants from the massacre. Different times.

    As far as the Blacks and the Priesthood, I know many black members today that do not hold any grudge. They participate in the Temple and honor their Priesthood. So, why not you? Who are you to deny those Black Brothers the right to hold the Priesthood of God. Are you racist? Your thought process reminds me of the BLM members who call their Black brothers who are policemen and policewomen Uncle and Aunt Tom's.

    If you were to have studied the Scriptures better, you would know that God didn't always choose righteous people to be His Prophets and Apostles. In fact, many were just the opposite. Same in the Book of Mormon. Some had to be struck dumb for awhile in order to soften their hearts. Why do you think people have to be perfect to by the messenger of God? All have sinned and fall short the glory of God. Especially those who are ignorant of the realities of the events of a 163 years ago.

    There are no doubts that members and leaders of all religions back in those days had racist problems. So did much of the country. Those in the North weren't exactly saints about it either, were they. Different times. But, as most of the country has changed their understanding and beliefs about racism, so has the Church and the leadership. Are their still leaders in the Church, General or local still struggling with race or any other things? Of course. Who is perfect? We all have our demons and struggles and obviously you do. But, we as a nation and a Church try and work on being better people. However, there are also writings of Brigham Young that you obviously missed where he was not in favor of limiting the Blacks in the Priesthood and that he very much wanted it to change. But, I'm sure you aren't interested in knowing those things. You might want to check out how people and laws back in those days viewed blacks and being ministers in a Church, especially those not all black Churches. It was against the law in most places. So, how would that work since in order to be a "minister" or "Pastor" or "Priest" work in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Again, you simply cannot judge people in different times, different beliefs and social orders. We can judge how far we have come. In 1977, when I attended BYU, all that changed. The reasons given for the limitation of the Priesthood were all wrong because they were simply humans trying to answer a question of why. Here's my answer to you. My testimony of the Church and the Gospel isn't based upon the actions of other men and women. It's based on the testimony given to me by and through the Holy Ghost. While my testimony is more than a still small voice or a burning in the heart, that's all that is really needed. It's called faith. Something you've lost.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
  15. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    The Jesus character said that people should cut off body parts to keep from sinning. Do you follow that commandment? If not, why not?
     
  16. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    That is not true because each region had its own alphabet, especially when the biblical stories were supposedly written. You can see the difference by looking at ancient Greek monuments that have writitng on them and that are dated.
     
  17. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    That is a good spin on it. However, according to the Bible theose people will end up in the lake of fire because they did not do what is right. Remember, the Joker in the deck is that man ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and, as a result, became like God = Genesis 3:22. So there is no excuse for them doing evil. Burn, baby burn.
     
  18. Cougarbear121212

    Cougarbear121212 Banned

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    Baloney! Everyone of your pastors receive filthy lucre for saying what their congregations want to hear. There clerks and other assistant pastors get paid as well. Not so in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Oh my, we actually ask for members to pay tithes and offerings, just as the Bible directs instead of robbing God. There’s an obvious business need for any Church. Especially a worldwide Church.
     
  19. Cougarbear121212

    Cougarbear121212 Banned

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    Conservative Democrat? Today that’s a contradiction of terms.
     
  20. Cougarbear121212

    Cougarbear121212 Banned

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    He used parables and symbols to teach truths. So did Paul. His method of teaching has nothing to do with the doctrine and miracles in the Bible. How you conflate the two is illogical.
     
  21. cirdellin

    cirdellin Banned

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    No spin.
    I quoted Young directly from his own hateful words!
     
  22. cirdellin

    cirdellin Banned

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    So the more than a billion dollar city creek mall is a business need for the church as are all the Temples?
     
  23. cirdellin

    cirdellin Banned

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    The church not only denied involvement in it but to this day refuse to take responsibility for the massacre.
     
  24. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is no commandment to cut off body parts, so I don't know where you get these ideas from. Jesus said it would be better for a person to cut off a body part than to sin - meaning I believe that the suffering would be less than their suffering in their after life.
     
  25. cirdellin

    cirdellin Banned

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    Nobody does this anyway. I’m more intrigued by the wine equals his blood and the bread his flesh aspect. Tells me the last meal had a limited choice in food. It could have gone in to say this asparagus is my spleen and this brisket are my muscles and so on :)
     

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