I'm Not Giving Up The Watchmaker Argument , , , ,

The bible was written by man, men make mistakes.

 

False.

The Bible is bunk.

We can play this game all day. If all you have is "because my book says so" then we can say the same against your claim and this will go in circles forever.

 

False.
It may be "no case at all" to you, but it is a true case to Christendom.

I did not suggest it -- I boldly declared that the Bible says exactly that.
Note the bolded red below , , ,

Start quote.
"At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds
of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating
one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared,
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because
of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the
Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our
Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs
having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you
to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful
to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and
profitable for everyone. Titus 3:3-8
End quote.

We do good works because we ARE saved -- we do NOT do good works in
order to become saved.

False.
I never at any time even hinted at the notion of "renouncing" Honesty,
Honor, and Integrity. That is 100% YOUR incorrect interpretation of
what I actually said.

Here, word for word, is what I actually said , ,

False gods , , ,
Anything outside the soul's protection of John 3:16's Eternal Life is idolatry
The False-god-Honesty will ruin and wreck the human soul.
The False-god-Honor will ruin and wreck the human soul.
The False-god-Integrity will ruin and wreck the Human soul

All three, and more, are examples of our human Self-Righteousness
and our human Self-Righteousness is a soul-destroyer and will
result in the "perish" of John 3:16

Sometimes Honesty & Honor & Integrity Can Be
Soul-Destroyers , , ,
We are NOT saved based on our "good works" which are such as
our "Honesty" and "Honor" and "Integrity" -- rather we are saved
by our renouncing our "good works" as the method and means of
our salvation and turning to Faith in Christ's righteousness which
is credited to our account when we come to believe in Him as our
Savior.

That's what "Savior" means. We have to be saved from something
and in the case of many people, they have to be saved from
trusting in their False-gods of , , ,
~ Honesty
~ Honor
~ Integrity
, , which for them is idolatry.

And that up there is the truth.

Incorrect.
You can read the Bible for yourself and draw your own conclusions.
Why focus on me?
I am just one Christian among 2.4 billion Christians.
You have google at your finger tips.
You have access to Christendom's great works on Christian Apologetics.
You do not have to listen to me.

As you said in another place, people do not even have to read what I write.
You do not have to read my posts.

You can put me on Ignore.
I love the Ignore Feature . . .
I have I think about 8 people here on Ignore so I NEVER see what they write.

JAG

I will respond to the rest of your post later , , ,


``

 

God is Omnipotent {all powerful}
God therefore can, and did, use His Sovereign power to make certain
that , , ,

, , , "All Scripture is God-breathed" , , ,

, , , , and therefore , , ,

~ useful for teaching
~ rebuking
~ correcting
~ training in righteousness
~ so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work
{Find the list above in the bolded red below}

"But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become
convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it,
and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which
are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking,
correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of
God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work
___.2 Timothy 3:10-17


JAG

``

 

So god mind controlled the bible's writers. Got it.

 

"There is no such thing as an atheist . . ."

you believe in a God that you have never seen

but don't believe in what is all around you?

 

God made it plain to you in what He created.

Romans 1:19-20 says "since what may be known about God is plain to
them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of
the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature
have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made,
so that people are without excuse."

Note the particulars in Romans 1:19-20
{1) There is information that can be known about God.
{2} This information is plain to men.
{3} God Himself has made it plain to them.
{4} It has been plain to them since the creation of the world.
{5} God's eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen
{6} All this in understood from what God created.
{7} Therefore men are without excuse {for not believing in God.}

Romans 1:19-20 is the germ principle of the Teleological Argument
for the existence of God -- the argument from the Intelligent Design
of the Earth and the Universe.

____________


You can add to all that up there, ALL that we have come to know here
in the 21st century about the , ,

~ highly complex Earth
~ highly complex Universe
~ highly complex Human Brain
~ highly complex Human Eye
~ highly complex Human Body
~ highly complex "Working Rolex Watch" which I use ONLY as representative
of that which is highly complex {natural processes cannot create a Rolex Watch}

__________

God has "made it easy" for you to believe in Him.
If you really and truly wanted to, you could believe
in Him.

Step # 1 is for you to use your Free Will to decide
that you DO want to believe in God your Creator.

Step # 2 is to sincerely pray the Sinner's Prayer , ,

"Dear Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask
for Your forgiveness. I believe You died for my sins and
rose from the dead. I turn from my sins and invite You to
come into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow
You as my Lord and Savior. In Your Name. Amen."
___off the web {used in the Billy Graham Crusades}

Best.

JAG

``

 

It was not "mind control" like one would "mind control" a robot.
The Christian explanation regarding how "God-breathed"
was carried out is that the Biblical writers wrote freely but
the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit worked in them
in such as way that , , ,
■ they freely wrote their epistles and gospels etc , ,
, , , while at the same time , ,
■ the Holy Spirit supernaturally inspired them to write what
God wanted to communicate to the Human Race

________

Thank you for your interest in the subject.
I will do my best to answer any sincere questions
you have.

JAG

``

 

Either the men who wrote the bible had the free will to make mistakes, or they didn't.

 

That is exactly what I said.
I now reaffirm that to be true.
There is no such thing as an atheist.
ALL men know there is a God that created them

I do.
Its like the Kite-String thingy.
John flew his kite really high and completely out of sight.
In about 20 minutes Tom showed up and John asked
Tom to hold the string to his kite while he John went to
use the bathroom.
Tom held the string to the kite and Tom could feel the
movement and the "pull of the kite" having NEVER
seen the kite.
I have never seen God -- but I daily feel the good "movement"
and I daily "feel the pull" of the Sovereign God and I know
He is there.

I have a choice:
I can believe
{1} You & the other "atheists"
, , or
{2} I can believe what God said in Psalm 19:1-4 down below

I will choose to believe {2}

However , , ,
I do believe there are many people who claim to be atheists.
But I do not believe they actually are atheists.
Here is one reason why , , ,

Psalm 19:1-4 says , , ,
"The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."

Note the particulars in Psalm 19:1-4
{1} The heavens declare something -- they declare God's glory
{2} The sky proclaims something -- it proclaims God's works.
{3} This proclaiming is a form of speech.
{4} Night after night knowledge of God is revealed.
{5} The heavens and sky do not use human-language speech.
{6} Yet their voice-message goes out worldwide to the ends of the earth.

Psalm 19:1-4 is also the germ principle of the Teleological Argument
for the existence of God -- the argument from the Intelligent Design
of the Earth and the Universe.

JAG

 

No it is mind control like any other cult uses, brain washing is a better term, fundamentalists take children and repeat lies to them over and over again, they use reward and punishment until they believe a goat herders almanac was written by an invisible being who will persecute them even after death!

 

They did have Free Will to make mistakes.
But the supernatural power of the Sovereign God
worked in such a way where their Free Will was not
violated and neither did they make any mistakes.

Two examples Of This , , ,
{1} You can have Free Will to commit a crime, and God
in His Mercy and Grace can work in your life in such
a way where you are prevented from committing the
crime while at the same time your Free Will is not
violated.

{2} Human fathers do this all the time when they raise their
sons. They discipline them so as to prevent them from
using their Free Will to do wrong -- while at the same time
the human fathers do not violate their sons' Free Will.
You know this is true.

JAG

 

My bold, exactly correct.

 

"
I have a choice:
I can believe
{1} You & the other "atheists"
"

you just admitted you believe there are Atheists

you can't say there are no atheists then say you don't believe the atheists - lol

 

Which destroys Plantinga's argument for free will which the OP openly propagates, the hypocrisy is huge!

 

In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance occurs when a person holds contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values, and is typically experienced as psychological stress when they participate in an action that goes against one or more of them. According to this theory, when two actions or ideas are not psychologically consistent with each other, people do all in their power to change them until they become consistent.[1] The discomfort is triggered by the person's belief clashing with new information perceived, wherein they try to find a way to resolve the contradiction to reduce their discomfort.[1][2]

In A Theory of Cognitive Dissonance (1957), Leon Festinger proposed that human beings strive for internal psychological consistency to function mentally in the real world. A person who experiences internal inconsistency tends to become psychologically uncomfortable and is motivated to reduce the cognitive dissonance. They tend to make changes to justify the stressful behavior, either by adding new parts to the cognition causing the psychological dissonance or by avoiding circumstances and contradictory information likely to increase the magnitude of the cognitive dissonance.[2]

Coping with the nuances of contradictory ideas or experiences is mentally stressful. It requires energy and effort to sit with those seemingly opposite things that all seem true. Festinger argued that some people would inevitably resolve dissonance by blindly believing whatever they wanted to believe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

I think we can see the bolded in the posts being made, refusal to accept atheists exist and avoiding any contradicting debate.

 

Why would He who created the Universe with an utterance have problems with all of the other miracles in the world? YOu say He doesn't talk to us.. well he used to, however we would quickly forget in a generation or two (afterall, nobody a generation after a miracle like splitting the sea ever saw it.. did they?) so He started writing it down, which, guess what, people still find a way top discount it.
BTW.. I started out just as ignorant as the antagonist here.. but I stayed committed to the study of the Bible and came to realize if you study the Bible long enough, you come to realize just how supernatural a book it is. and true to it's core.

JAG.. ever check out Dr Chuck Missler's lectures or books? just fascinating what he reveals

 

Nope, sorry.

 

Why would the god of the bible not make it a preserved text? Why so many versions and no original copy? Biblical scholars think that we do not even have the original text from the scraps we do have. Your god was a bit careless with his written words!

 

Compare what you just wrote about the provenance of the Bible with the provenance other ancient texts

 

`
Free Will & A Strawberry Ice Cream Cone , , ,

Check this out below , , ,

How { ? } does God simultaneously , , ,
{A} maintain our Free Will , , ,
while at the same time , , ,
{B} working in our lives where we do His will.

One way is that He presents the "outside inducements"
in such a way where both {A} and {B} occurs.

Let me give you one example where you could do that
same thing with your son.

A Father & Son & A Strawberry Ice Cream Cone , , ,
Let us say that you decide that your 8 year old son will
eat a strawberry ice cream cone this coming Wednesday.

His favorite flavor is chocolate and strawberry is only his
2nd favorite flavor.

Remember that you are ONLY going to control the external
circumstances and the "outside inducements" -- you are NOT
going to Force your son to eat the strawberry ice cream cone.

~ the external circumstances , , ,
~ the "outside inducements" , , ,

You CAN control the external circumstances and
the "outside inducements" , , ,

{1} On Wednesday morning you make certain that there is no
breakfast available so that your son will be hungry come
lunch time.

{2| You can control the place where you and your son go that
day.

{3} You select a Park Area that has an ice cream stand.

{4} On Tuesday you arrange with the Ice Cream Stand's
owner for him NOT to have any chocolate ice cream
available when you and your son arrive at the park
area at 12 noon.

{5} When you and your son arrive at the park, your son tells
you he is hungry and wants an ice cream cone.

{6} You take your son to the ice cream stand.

{7} Your son is told there is no chocolate ice cream available.

{8} Your son asks if there is strawberry ice cream available.

{9} Your son is told yes there is strawberry ice cream available.

{10} Your son, now really hungry, and preferring chocolate ice cream,
nonetheless, gladly "settles for" his 2nd favorite strawberry flavor,
and asks for and eats the strawberry ice cream cone.

So?

So your son did EXACTLY what you had planned for him to do
and at the same time you DID NOT violate your son's Free Will.

Your son at all times had the Free Will choice to say "No, I do not
want to eat a strawberry ice cream cone."

You did not urge him to eat the strawberry ice cream cone.
You did not say a single word to him about it.
You merely controlled the circumstances and you put the
"outside inducement" of the strawberry ice cream cone in
front of him -- by making sure that he would be told that
the strawberry ice cram was available for him if he wanted
it.

You son made a 100% Free Will decision to eat the strawberry
ice cream cone.

_________

That up there is one example of how the Sovereign God can control
the circumstances and the "outside inducements" in such a way where
men end up doing what he has predetermined them to do --- while at the
same time -- their Free Will is not violated.

_________

I realize that my example and illustration of the "Father & Son & Ice Cream Cone"
is not a perfect example or illustration --- but it does succeed in demonstrating
how a Father can control the circumstances and the "outside inducements" to
bring about a predetermined plan and at the same time, NOT violate his son's
Free Will.

__________


Thought For Today.

"But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves
this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond
the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living.
But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord."
Joshua 24:15

JAG

``

 

Sure lets start with the Quran which is a preserved text according to Muslims, what is your point?

 

No what is shows very well is that you do not understand the concept of free will, making your son hungry and then only offering him strawberry ice cream or hunger is not free will it is coercion. The threat you made was hunger, it is a very mild threat to be sure but it is a threat! I feel really sorry for any child that has to live with a coercive father who does not understand what coercion is!

 

Incorrect.
I put the word atheists in quote marks indicating that I was using the
word atheist in a special way. -- I wrote "atheists"

_______

Also I often write the word atheist or atheists and do NOT use quote
marks. And I will continue to do this and at the same time I will continue
to present the Biblical case that there is no such thing as an atheist.

I will do that for you now and NOT use quote marks.

"There is no such thing as an atheist."___JAG

Romans 1:19-20 says "since what may be known about God is plain to
them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of
the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature
have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made,
so that people are without excuse."

Note the particulars in Romans 1:19-20
{1) There is information that can be known about God.
{2} This information is plain to men.
{3} God Himself has made it plain to them.
{4} It has been plain to them since the creation of the world.
{5} God's eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen
{6} All this in understood from what God created.
{7} Therefore men are without excuse {for not believing in God.}

Romans 1:19-20 is the germ principle of the Teleological Argument
for the existence of God -- the argument from the Intelligent Design
of the Earth and the Universe.

_________


All men know there is a God. There is no such thing as an atheist.


JAG

`

 

In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance occurs when a person holds contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values, and is typically experienced as psychological stress when they participate in an action that goes against one or more of them. According to this theory, when two actions or ideas are not psychologically consistent with each other, people do all in their power to change them until they become consistent.[1] The discomfort is triggered by the person's belief clashing with new information perceived, wherein they try to find a way to resolve the contradiction to reduce their discomfort.[1][2]

In A Theory of Cognitive Dissonance (1957), Leon Festinger proposed that human beings strive for internal psychological consistency to function mentally in the real world. A person who experiences internal inconsistency tends to become psychologically uncomfortable and is motivated to reduce the cognitive dissonance. They tend to make changes to justify the stressful behavior, either by adding new parts to the cognition causing the psychological dissonance or by avoiding circumstances and contradictory information likely to increase the magnitude of the cognitive dissonance.[2]

Coping with the nuances of contradictory ideas or experiences is mentally stressful. It requires energy and effort to sit with those seemingly opposite things that all seem true. Festinger argued that some people would inevitably resolve dissonance by blindly believing whatever they wanted to believe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

I think we can see the bolded in the posts being made, refusal to accept atheists exist and avoiding any contradicting debate.

blindly believing whatever they wanted to believe.