Why Trump was Never the Legitimate President

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Modus Ponens, Nov 21, 2020.

  1. Modus Ponens

    Modus Ponens Well-Known Member

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    It is a manifest fact that Trump is not nor ever was a legitimate president. Trump holds his office legally, and he can legally exercise the powers of that office (though he often doesn't, and this goes directly to his lack of legitimacy).

    Legitimacy, however, is the most fundamental criterion for wielding power (at least, when that power is held under law). It pertains to the fundamental issue of an individual's entitlement to or worthiness of the office they occupy (a notion captured by the Ancient Roman concept of auctoritas). We often equate legal election with legitimacy, but this isn't so. Trump's whole conduct in public life - as a candidate and as "president," as head of state - makes this blazingly clear. Trump got into office by cooperating with Russian interference in the election - indeed he even publicly solicited this interference. Though a hypercautious special counsel investigation concluded that it could not charge him with criminal conspiracy in this connection, the evidence for the conspiracy is found throughout Mueller's report (and has since been corroborated by the Republican-led Senate investigation into the matter). At the very least we can assert as a matter of fact that Trump colluded with the Russians in the run-up to the 2016 election. Given now close the election was, it is reasonable to say that but for that coordination with a hostile foreign state, Trump would not have become president.* A president* that is successfully installed in power through the machinations of an enemy power is not a legitimate leader.

    Add to that the fact that Trump lost the popular vote by nearly 3M ballots; Trump lost the ballot by a greater margin than other successful candidates have won by. He was the minority-vote winner at the very same time as he ran probably the most insidious and divisive campaign in the history of American politics; and he proceeded to govern as if he had gotten an electoral mandate. For a divisive political figure of such proportions to gain office while losing the ballot by such a margin (and with Russian assistance!), is not some technical glitch or rounding-off error of the Electoral College - it is a crisis for democracy.

    This is why Trump necessitates that we clearly distinguish between his power, and his legitimacy. He is no President; he is an interloper in an empty Oval Office, who benefits from the powers of the office so long as no true head of state exists. After he leaves office, he remains a fake "president" - and he deserves to be ceaselessly reminded of that, everywhere he goes.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
  2. Matthewthf

    Matthewthf Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Trump never campaigned for the popular vote or the results would be different.

    There is 50 individual votes to see who wins the EC. That's all that matters.
     
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  3. Modus Ponens

    Modus Ponens Well-Known Member

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    That's all that matter for someone to legally possess the powers of the presidency. But that's not what makes a president legitimate. It matters a great deal, since it goes directly to the question of whether or not government officers or the citizenry in general is enjoined to follow his directives or obey him.
     
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  4. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Trump always brags about his 'crowd size'. obviously, he cares more about popularity than his defenders are saying.

    I sincerely doubt your premise is true. He hates the fact that he didn't win the popular vote, such that he had to invent a lie that the only reason he didn't was that some 3 million illegals voted.

    Those are the words of demagogue. not a legitimate president.

    His strategy, and a good one for a smaller budget, was to dominate the airwaves which gave him free media far and above any other candidate. That fact pushed him over the top more than any other factor, in my view.

    trumpairtime.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  5. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    While your points are factually supportable I suggest we focus our energy and anger over the travesty of his presidency towards something positive for the future of the country.

    https://www.nationalpopularvote.com/
     
  6. Modus Ponens

    Modus Ponens Well-Known Member

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    While it's a worthy aim to try make an end-run against the EC in this way, it's almost academic, since getting enough states into the compact is already an electoral majority. If we can assemble that on a semi-permanent basis, we wouldn't need the compact. In my estimation it's just as well to focus on the task of enshrining new norms for the proper conduct of our leaders in office. We have got to disabuse ourselves of the notion that "if the President does it, that means it's legal." To do that we need to make it clear that just because an official is elected, that does not entitle him/her to obedience in their directives, if they are by the facts an illegitimate political actor. Restoring norms is the more important task, than an interstate compact that would probably be struck down by a Conservative Court, anyway.
     
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  7. joesnagg

    joesnagg Banned

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    What a load of utter BS! Just when ya think the hysterical TDS around here might finally start to wane with Biden winning.... if you wish to elect a Pope, BECOME A CARDINAL!
     
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  8. Asherah

    Asherah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You're using a subjective definition of "legitimacy". You are basically arguing that, in your view. Trump is not a legitimate President. That's fine, but you can't expect Trump supporters to agree. In terms of the election process, his election was legitimate.

    I agree he was unfit for the office, and he violated his oath of office repeatedly. What we've learned is that these are irrelevant, because they don't keep him from being elected, as would (say) his being under 35 years of age or not being a native born American. Worst President in American history, but that doesn't mean there was anything objectively illegitimate.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
  9. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    Crap like this is why Joe and Kneepads will receive the same treatment.
     
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  10. Modus Ponens

    Modus Ponens Well-Known Member

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    Too bad for you, this is the way it's always been - for kings and popes and presidents. Legitimacy is the first principle of rule. You lose it, your occupation of the office means null.
     
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  11. Xyce

    Xyce Well-Known Member

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    If a true-blue conservative Republican is trying to court the favor of the majority in New York and California, then they're doing something wrong. Trump does not want the approval of the Antifia-sympathizing wastewater of society; thus no decent American--those who voted Trump, not Biden--at least right now, would ever want their president to win the popular vote.
     
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  12. Modus Ponens

    Modus Ponens Well-Known Member

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    It's actually an an Ancient concept, going back to Roman auctoritas or the Chinese 'Mandate of Heaven.' The very nature of legitimacy, is that it is a bottom-up political dynamic. It has to be accepted - either tacitly or explicitly - by the ruled, and specifically in this case by the political opposition. This is why the opinion of Trump's political supporters is not especially relevant, here. And this is something Trump understood instinctively, with his pursuit of the racist Birther conspiracy. The extra-legal reality of legitimacy is attested by the fact that Trump himself, from the beginning, has been confounded by the Resistance's refusal to accept him as president, because of the popular vote and because of Russian meddling on his behalf. Now Trump supporters are doing their utmost to cast doubt on Biden's legitimacy. It's doubtful that it's going to work in this case, because Republicans themselves are split about the whole conceit of election "theft" here.


    Look, the whole concept of "worst President in American history," is a subjective one. Assessments like that are grounded in the concept of legitimacy, not any legal or objective forms. Yes, legitimacy is ultimately a subjective criterion; but it has teeth when (as an objective matter of fact) it is a widespread view. When the view that a political actor is illegitimate is widespread, it is usually because that view is grounded in reality. Birtherism did not survive, for example, because it was not grounded in reality. But Trump was never truly head of state, since he repeatedly violated his oath of office, and even explicitly styled himself as the Tribune of his America, against other Americans. In this way he is singularly different from every other man who ever held the office. Different enough that he can be called usurper and interloper, instead of "president" - both while he was in office, and thereafter by history.
     
  13. Modus Ponens

    Modus Ponens Well-Known Member

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    You're trying. You tried with Birtherism, but that failed. Now you're trying to torch public faith in the institution of the vote, but that will fail, too. But Trump will forever and always be a fake president.
     
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  14. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    What a cop out. A patriot tries to sell his message to everyone he or she can.
    Only a petty partisan putz would do as you suggest.

    Trump is extremely envious of the popular vote. If y'all had won it, you'd be singing a different tune, and you know it, so cut the crap.

    Yours is the party of Putin's Puppet, aka Putin's useful idiot. Under Trump, hate crimes way up, Putin smiles upon thee.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54968498
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2019

    Spare us the stench of self-righteous indignation, noting that the right has zero to be self righteous about.

    The Bloviating Blowhard's Bullcrap Brigade Bombs in a Blizzard of BS, just as it began. The world celebrates.
    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  15. Asherah

    Asherah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Lots of Republicans didn't accept Obama's legitimacy, and even more won't accept Biden's. We should all accept the objective fact that Biden won the election- but sadly, even that seems to be reaching too high.
    Consider that the only people who will ever consider a President ILLegitimate will be a subset of those who voted against him. At best, it becomes a proxy for the popular vote.

    I'm fine with you considering Trump illegitimate, but personally - I'd prefer to use the term more selectively. For example" if Trump were to be inserted into office by state legislatures who choose to ignore the popular vote in their state - IMO, THAT would be illegitimate.
     
  16. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    Your opinions are amusing but nothing more than opinions. You have a right to be in error, it's a free country, for now.
     
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  17. Chuck711

    Chuck711 Well-Known Member

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    79 Million Americans who voted for Biden will back Biden ......... as he restores America more will join in Bringing back our country !!
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  18. Asherah

    Asherah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's 79.8 million as of today, 8% more votes than Trump got. That's a very good thing, and I hope you're right that more come to recognize the need to act as one country again. That is what makes us great, not divisiveness.
     
  19. Modus Ponens

    Modus Ponens Well-Known Member

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    No, in that context "illegitimacy" is not a concept which has enough teeth. What Trump is doing is a violation of his Oath of office, a betrayal of the country. What he is doing should already be illegal as a matter of statute; probably the experience of this Admin. will result in a lot of Executive conduct being rendered illegal by statute. It's a form of norm-breaking which is so consequential that it is dangerous for the country's long-term future. Take McConnell's theft of Obama's S.C. seat, for example. Yes, it was illegitimate, but more than that, it was Unconstitutional. For the those kinds of violations of our American Social Contract, the explicitly extra-legal concept of illegitimacy is not sufficient. Instead we should reserve the category of 'illegitimacy' for a whole pattern of conduct by a political party or to refer to the status of a legal officeholder who in his person represents a violation of our most cherished norms.

    No, that doesn't quite work. It's entirely conceivable that, in our system, a person could ascend to the presidency through the EC, but retain (or even enhance) her/his popular legitimacy, by the way that they conducted themselves in office and performed their duties.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  20. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    The legitimacy of a President is determined by the Electoral College. That may be a flawed system, but it is the one that exists & the rules are known & understood. Trump won in the Electoral College, so he had legitimacy. People can tie themselves in knots arguing about the popular vote, but it isn't relevant.
     
  21. Asherah

    Asherah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree with everything you said. I just don't think it's productive to debate use of the term "legitimate". Better to state the very facts you just did.

    McConnell lied, and was underhanded, but he didn't violate the Constitution, not technically anyway. It did violate the spirit of the Constitution, but unless they explicitly commit a crime, there's no way to hold them accountable (in Trump's case, there's not even accountability when he explicitly commits crimes). It's unfortunate that they are more interested in partisan victories than in preserving the ideals upon which the country was founded.
     
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  22. freedom8

    freedom8 Well-Known Member

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    Very true! You've unmasked:wink: him like he's never been before!:lol:
     
  23. Modus Ponens

    Modus Ponens Well-Known Member

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    NO, it is NOT. The EC, though installed in the Constitution itself, is of (very) dubious legitimacy.
     
  24. Modus Ponens

    Modus Ponens Well-Known Member

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    It's a problem if we're debating what shouldn't be debatable, true. I'm sorry, I don't want to be argumentative. But the point with the OP is a crucial one. It gives us a weapon - one grounded in history and human psychology - to go after demagogues and would-be tyrants who are getting away with murder even when they are not breaking any laws. We need this political language to deal with this novel situation.

    Calling a political actor or some action they take illegitimate should be a powerful rhetorical weapon; and it gets to the point in one word, what I otherwise needed a paragraph to explain.


    No, what McConnell did was Unconstitutional. The developed argument is a little complicated, but what it comes down to is that the Constitution obligates the President and the Senate to fulfill certain roles in making appointments, and McConnell violated his role and in so doing put the President in violation of his. Moreover, the effect of all that was to violate the Separation of Powers. What McConnell did is precisely the kind of norm-breaking (doing something unprecedented because it is to your political advantage, and because (it seems) no one says "You can't do that") that brought down the Roman Republic. The moral-political language of legitimacy is valuable precisely to push back in that situation.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  25. mitchscove

    mitchscove Well-Known Member Donor

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    The Constitution never mentions "popular vote" in the election of a President because the states elect the President. Not the people. That's one of the factors that make the US a Democratic Republic.

    Getting down to legitimacy. The Constitution does require that the President be a natural born citizen. That means the father of the President has to have been a citizen at the time of the President's birth. Tell us about the citizenship of Obama's father at the time of Barack's birth or at any time.
     

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