Are we pushing Russia to war?

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by JakeJ, Dec 28, 2020.

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Are we pushing Russia to war?

  1. We should use every means but WMDs to totally destroy Russia

    15.4%
  2. We are forcing Russia to engage in non-military counter economic warfare; political, hacking etc

    7.7%
  3. If we don't stop trying to destroy Russia it could lead to conventional warfare between us

    7.7%
  4. If we don't stop trying to destroy Russian and Russians it could lead to limited use of WMDs

    7.7%
  5. If we don't stop deliberately harming Russia pushing Russia down it could lead to open nuclear war

    15.4%
  6. We should increase sanctions and isolating Russia - and there's nothing Russia can do about it.

    7.7%
  7. The RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! propaganda is to divert from looking at the real danger: CHINA

    38.5%
  8. The Cold War against the extinct USSR is too profitable to ever allow to end

    7.7%
  9. Russia remains the greatest danger against the USA so we must hold Russia down continuously

    15.4%
  10. We should stop trying to ruin Russia

    30.8%
  11. The US military industrial complex and warhawks perpetuate the Cold War for profit and power

    46.2%
  12. IDK/Other

    7.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. JakeJ

    JakeJ Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    MULTIPLE CHOICE POLL & YOU CAN CHANGE YOUR VOTE

    I'll begin by discounting the claims that "Putin" is evil because that justification would apply to the majority of world leaders - many vastly worse.
    The Russian GDP is 1/5th that of the USA and the average income for working adults is less than $1000 per month. While we have major foreign military bases all over the world, Russia has few and all are near Russia's own boarder.
    [​IMG]
    https://www.rferl.org/a/where-are-us-and-russian-military-bases-in-the-world/28890842.html

    Russian society is collapsing. American politicians constantly call for ruining Russia, ever more sanctions, constantly claiming Russia is "engaging in acts of war" against the USA - constantly beating the drums of war. Our military people and many politicians seemed fixated on going to war in Syria - which has been an ally of Russia and with Russian bases there nearly as long as the USA has had based in Germany - and Russia is in Syria by invitation while we \came to be in Germany by conquering Germany.

    By nearly every measure Russia is a lightweight compared to the super heavy weight USA and dwarfed economically, in manufacturing and population to the EU.

    But historically any foreign country seeing weaknesses in Russia believing Russia could easily be defeated got crushed in wars of massive casualties. Russia is no flyweight in nuclear weaponry - enough to totally obliterate the USA in MAD. When Turkey was preparing to invade Northern Syria, Putin stated outright he would respond with tactical nuclear weapons if Turkey did.

    Should we continue in our quest to cause Russians to starve to death? Should we attack Russian ally bases in other countries directly? Should we keep arming insurgents against Russia? Are we forcing Russia to counter attack our endless attacks against Russia - economic etc? Are we - should we - keep pushing Russia to war?

    Personally, I think the real reasons are the massive profits and power that come with maintaining the Cold War against the extinct USSR forever - and to divert from the real enemy - CHINA - because American plutocrats are business partners with Chinese plutocrats and the Chinese government. In my opinion, we should let the massively wealthier EU deal with Russia and stop constantly pricking around with Russia. It is TOO danger a game to keep playing starve-the-Russian-people. Starving people may demand their leaders go to war one way or any other - who may have to as the only way to stay in power. This could start an escalation that can not be stopped - and it seems to be that escalation is growing already.

    MULTIPLE CHOICE POLL & YOU CAN CHANGE YOUR VOTE
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
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  2. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

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    You can't tell from his military bases that Putin is a criminal. There are other hints.

    • Putin supports the dictator Bashar in his efforts to slaughter parts of his population.
    • Putin tries to influence elections in Western countries and spreads anti-Western lies through his propaganda media.
    • Putin's hackers are spying on Western governments.
    • Putin's agents kill apostates in other countries, thus he undermines the national sovereignty of these countries.
    • Putin murders critical journalists and members of the opposition in his own country.
    • Putin committed genocide in Chechnya.
    The problem is not Russia, Putin and his gangster regime are.
    As a former KGB officer, this guy is extremely dangerous! :(
     
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  3. JakeJ

    JakeJ Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The other side is evil has always been used to try to justify war. Of course, the evil of the leaders of other world leaders is ignored. We are not the police of the world. Other countries claim the same about us - killing people in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, bombing within other countries etc, etc. Nearly all newspapers and television stations claim our president is evil. We spy on other countries all the and order people assassinated in other countries.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
  4. Mircea

    Mircea Well-Known Member

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    The US supports and supported numerous dictators that slaughtered their populations or others,

    The US influences foreign elections and has done so since 1898 and it spreads pro-US and anti-other rhetoric.

    The US has continually spied on its own Allies and other governments and hacks into telecommunication systems of its Allies and other governments.

    The US has illegally overthrown the governments or attempted to murder the heads-of-State of 96 countries. That includes the attempted murder of Nasser of Egypt, Prime Minister Nehru of India, Prime Minister Mossadeq of Iran, and many others.

    The US murders and tortures journalists in other countries to protect the puppet dictators it installs.

    See the SAVAK for details.

    Killing people not of your ethnicity is not genocide.
     
  5. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Putin runs Russia much like a mafia godfather, with his capos and soldiers. And sure, he spies on us.

    We spy on Russia too. A fascinating nonfiction book on how we spied on Russia in the 80s is “The Moscow Rules” written by a CIA agent who was directly involved in it in Moscow.

    The real threat is China, which has very likely compromised the incoming POTUS.
     
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  6. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    Relative to the idea of war with Russia or China, I think most people envision the idea of war representing the vision we project in fiction, nuclear war and it’s dark image of destruction. What I don’t think people really understand is the battlefield of the future, other than proxy skirmishes with bullets, rockets and bombs, the future battlefield will be cyber based, a war that has already be initiated and where the tentative probing of weaknesses, and defenses have already be happening to more than a a couple decades. In the last decade it has been accelerating. Few fully understand how to use the weapons effectively that are involved, and few of them know how the future battle will unfold, and few citizens among the antagonist countries know it’s already underway; the shots have already been fired. When the Mueller report came out, most were myopically focused on the implications relative to Trump, so the larger implication and threat has been nearly entirely missed, that of the Russian cyber threat and the even broader implications regarding the cyber threat posed by other belligerent. It reminds me how much of the world missed or dismissed the military buildup by Germany and Japan and the preliminary testing of their military tech in Spain’s civil war and the invasion of Manchuria. The recent hack of Government and fortune 500 companies can be seen as a probe, a deniable covert testing of cyber war capabilities which has not been seen as a harbinger of a growing threat. This is a new age, the armaments and military strategies have not been largely relegated to an academic status and not one we are mobilizing to meet with any real urgency.
     
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  7. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    There are neocon elements in our government that seem to want to push Russia into war although I can't for the life of me understand why. I'm not sure a war between Russia and the US could be contained at the conventional level, so i have to ask, what threat to the US does Russia pose that could be worth risking a nuclear war?
     
  8. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    To war? Unlikely. - there's no upside in that for either side because neither would win even a conventional fight except at a cost in lives and dollars/rubles that would dwarf any benefit the victor might otherwise receive. Russian can't compete military at sea with the US and it doesn't have the manpower/firepower to occupy large tracks of western Europe for any length of time. As for the US and NATO. Could they invade Russian territory in the absence of nuclear retaliation - yes. Could they hold on to large chunks of it for any reasonable length of time - no. Would it be worth doing it even if they could ? Even more no.

    If there's a difference between the two sides its this, Putin probably would invade the West and seize territory if he could, dreaming of the old Soviet empire as he did so. The West? Wouldn't if they could. What would they gain that was worth the effort? Nothing they couldn't buy on the open market that Russia wasn't keen to sell if allowed.

    Look at every major war since theWW11. The days lots of dollars going in and not much useful coming out in return. Preparing for war might be profitable, fighting one isn't.

    The west might however be pushing Russia into irrelevancy - with Putin's (and therefore Russia's help). To the extent the two sides disengage economically Russia is the loser. It needs western markets far more that the West needs Russia, with the exception natural gas and perhaps some rare elements. Demand for gas is going to decline as Europe goes carbon neutral and its Russians no. 1 export earner. So that source of revenue is on borrowed time. Whats left?

    So Russia faces a declining demand for its primary products, a declining population and increased levels of sanctions on its other industries to Putin's penchant for extraterritorial assassination.
     
  9. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    Russia and China go hand in hand. Both must be effectively destroyed in order for the world to every have any hope of real peace.
     
  10. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    When talk turns to destroying a perceived enemy, it always results in a reciprocal point of view that generates mutual fear, and from fear, wars are justified... everyone loses. Wars continue until solutions are found through the dialogue and treaty that allow belligerents to coexist. Why not jump over the fear and war stages directly to the dialogue and treaty phase to find how to coexist?
    BTW, as I posted previously, the next war will likely be fought on a cyber battlefield and the skirmishes have already started, that fact was the salient, over looked point, of the Mueler Report.
     
  11. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    Wrong on all counts. Oh I could propose a treaty with the Chinese and Russians but I'm certain they would never agree to it.
     
  12. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There are also many war-hawk semi-progressive Democrats who seem to want to push Russia into war.

    That's something that's not talked about as much, and many people don't realize.

    Dayton3 (the poster immediately above me) would probably fall into that category.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
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  13. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not a Democrat
     
  14. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But you are a Trump-hater, and you're definitely not conservative or a Republican.
    please correct me if I am wrong, I will then immediately delete my above comments
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
  15. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    I relentless supported President Trump for four years on this board and three others. I simply soured on him post election based on his words and actions.
     
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  16. Tahuyaman

    Tahuyaman Well-Known Member

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    If we are looking at a potential war with Russia, let’s compare the focus of their recruiting vs the focus of our recruiting.

     
    Last edited: May 22, 2021
  17. Tejas

    Tejas Banned

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    .

    Reminds me of how Cyrus conquered ancient Babylon.

    In other words... never underestimate the opposition.

    .
     
  18. Glücksritter

    Glücksritter Well-Known Member

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    You are mistaken something. The US allies, Sunni militants are those who wanted to commit genocide by slaughtering all so called "infidels", Shiite, Christian, the Kurds in the North and so on. Some credit to especially John Kerry and better late than never Obama, who stopped the support of this scum (IS, Al Nusra, etc.). This projection is pathetic though. Assad is an authoritarian, maybe even totalitarian leader who is merciless against opposition, but the lust for genocide was in the so-called "opposition".


    So what? Thats payback. The CIA by the way spied itself on other Western governments.

    These are the only two points left. Harsh judgement from a nation which installed the Guantanamo camp to intentionally circumvent human rights and international laws.

    Nonsense.
     
  19. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

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    You're kidding me, Bro. How can they be US allies if they're completely against America, the American way of life, and the US constitution?
     
  20. Glücksritter

    Glücksritter Well-Known Member

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    Seriously? You didn't realize it's a constant in America's foreign policy to use thugs, criminals, psychopaths and mass murderers when it's in their interest who certainly have no love for America? Good Boy!

    You think the Taliban and Mudjahedin in Afghanistan loved America in the 80ies? Do you think Bin Laden loved America, when you used him? Do you think Saddam Hussein loved America? Do you think Klaus Barbie and other former Nazis who were supported in South America loved the US? Do you think the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia loved the US?

    Jesus Christ, tell me this "They hate America as well so we cant have used them as allies" was a strawpuppet to confuse the issue and that you hopefully dont believe yourselve in what you are writing.
     
  21. zoom_copter66

    zoom_copter66 Well-Known Member

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    Russia's doing a good job of destroying itself....without US help, low birthrate,drug abuse, HIV, alcoholism,etc.
     
  22. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    Russia's actual response to us is (more) "active measures" disinformation aimed at destroying us from within by radicalizing our citizens.
     
  23. Flynn from Az

    Flynn from Az Well-Known Member

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    Wow
     
  24. Mircea

    Mircea Well-Known Member

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    Ask the Clinton Administration.

    As part of The Plan®, it was necessary to destroy Yugoslavia to 1) eliminate port access to Russian surface groups in the Mediterranean; and 2) bar the use of Yugoslavia as forward operating bases for Russian fighter, strike and bomber aircraft.

    Thus, when the The Plan® culminates with the establishment of US/British crafted No-Fly Zone from east of the Urals to the Pacific Ocean to protect "pro-democracy" groups in open rebellion, Russia won't be able to use naval bases in the Adriatic or airfield in Yugoslavia to strike NATO targets.

    To that end, the Clinton Administration secretly backed the secession of Yugoslav States and violated US federal law and international law by giving money to Pakistan to buy weapons from Iran.

    People harp about Iran-Contra, even though it wasn't completely illegal. There was a gray-area there and Congress closed the loop-hole so Clinton's Iran-Bosnia and Iran-Kosovo-Metohija really did violate the law and worse than what Reagan did.

    The Iranian weapons were shipped to Albania where Osama bin Laden's #2 lieutenant al-Zawahiri (later killed in a US air strike in Afghanistan) illegally smuggled the weapons into Bosnia and Kosovo-Metohija under the watchful eye of the CIA and Iranian VEVAK.

    The CIA and VEVAK were making sure no man-pad surface-to-air missile systems were included in the weapons shipments.

    But, hey, don't take my word. Go read the unclassified parts of the Senate Intelligence Committee reports.

    That faus pax is the reason Clinton's Neo-Con Tony Lake didn't get appointed as CIA Director 'cause the Senate stomped on him.

    Neo-Con Tony Lake was Clinton's right-hand man and the architect of Iran-Bosnia and Iran-Kosovo-Metohija.

    Bush did his part to further The Plan® by invading Afghanistan and Iraq.

    Obama did his part by illegally over-throwing the Libyan and Tunisian governments to deny Russia the use of those naval ports and as forward operating bases for fighter, strike and bomber aircraft.

    The US/Britain have driven the Russians out of the Mediterranean, save the port in Syria, which is small and not really of any consequence, but Neo-Cons are Jews and want to protect Israel, so Syria must be under US control prior to the initiation of conflict with Iran, lest Iran use its influence on certain groups in Syria to attack Israel.

    Once the US controls Iran, it will have unfettered air, sea, rail and highway access to the Five Central Asian States from the Persian Gulf, Arabian Sea, and Indian Ocean.

    After the US regains control of the 5 Central Asian States (Clinton lost control) then you can fund "pro-democracy" groups in the eastern Russian republics and smuggle weapons into those republics from the Central Asian States to foment revolution.

    Russia, like any country would, will move to suppress the insurgents and the US and Britain will set up a No-Fly Zone to protect them.

    That's why the US needs Poland, Ukraine, Romania and Bulgaria, as bases to launch fighters in support of the No-Fly Zone.

    That's why Russia needs Crimea.

    The naval bases there can support Russian surface groups who can screen with surface-to-air missiles against NATO aircraft leaving Romania and Bulgaria in support of the No-Fly Zone, and air defense missile systems in Crimea can do that as well, plus Crimea can host forward operating bases for Russian aircraft to interdict NATO aircraft coming from Turkey, Romania, Bulgaria and Ukraine, and to attack those bases as well.

    The Russians know all this (and so do the Chinese) which is why they're positioning themselves, to prevent NATO aggression.
     
  25. Flynn from Az

    Flynn from Az Well-Known Member

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    The disintegration of Yugoslavia was started by Slobodan Milošević, and Serbian nationalist right after Josip Tito died. After the fall of the Soviet Union, the Russians were in no shape to project military power anywhere.
    Two events are responsible for the situation that we find ourselves in now. First, Yetsin and the Russians were promised that with the unification of Germany, that NATO would not go “one inch” eastwards. The second event is a little less known. During the Bush Sr Administration the Wolfowitz Doctrine came to light, thru a leak that was published by the New York Times. The very same pack of ghouls that turned the Middle East into a raging dumpster fire, helped plant the seed of the next Cold War with Russia.
    The Wolfowitz Doctrine written by none other than Paul Wolfowitz, and Scooter Libby with the approval of the Sec of Defense Dick Cheney stated that “the US as the world’s only remaining superpower and proclaimed its main objective to be retaining that status. Its first objective was “to prevent the re-emergence of a new rival, either on the territory of the former Soviet Union or elsewhere that poses a threat on the order of that posed formerly by the Soviet Union.” In plane speak, the US needed to keep it’s boot on the Russian’s throat to maintain United States hegemony as they sole superpower left standing after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2021

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