If Jesus died for my sins

I think you've missed the point. My initial response was raising a counter argument to a claim made by 'I am'. My point however was an argument regarding the natural outcome of free will (if it exists) and consequences of our own actions. I fail to see how choices freely made by you make God a 'tyrant' given you have free will and can do anything you want, when you want. Embrace Christian theology or don't embrace it, its your choice. Marry or don't marry, eat cheesecake or don't each cheesecake, betray a trust or don't betray it etc etc).

The point is, if your at the 'steering wheel' of your own life then you 'own' the journey. So why is God a tyrant if your destination is the cumulative result of all the choices, you freely get to make, especially when your aware of the road rules.

 

You are correct on that. My actions and choices couldn't make any God, or anybody else, a tyrant. It is the actions and choices of that being, God or not, who makes themself a tyrant. All I can do is react accordingly. And if the tyrant is all powerful, then there isn't a whole lot I could against them to fight their tyranny. The best I could do would be to not revere or bow down to them, if I am even given that free will (some religious schools of thought don't think I am).

If I could, I hope I would oppose this tyrant version of God, and I would most definitely suffer accordingly. Of course, that's the ideal of what I hope I would do. But with infinite power to make me suffer infinitely, there is a good chance I would be too morally weak to stand up to the tyrant, and I may wind up bending the knee in shame, as many suffering under tyrants have done.

Also, you said I can do anything I want. I can't do ANYTHING I want. We humans do have limitations and constraints. I can't, for example, as hard as I may try, believe that this God exists. Nor can I make myself believe in other beings I think are imagined, like ghosts, etc. Any God who does exist but I can't make myself believe does, who punishes me for that inability, especially if he/she/it created me... is quite the tyrant indeed.

Again, my choices don't make anybody else a tyrant. Their choices do.

 

Firstly, limitations come with the whole 'human' package by default. Secondly your assuming you will never become a theist, no-one knows what tomorrow will bring. There will be people somewhere out there tomorrow who were believers and then lose their faith and others who were not believers but gain one. And no, I'm not saying you will or might be one of the latter, I'm saying know-one knows for sure so anything in that regard is possible..

Thirdly as I noted before everyone is responsible for their own choices, not God - US. So I would argue its wrong to blame God for decisions we make (their may be exceptions to this rule but I would also argue those exceptions are rare). Your also assuming that God is doing the 'punishing'. If your destiny is the inevitable result of your accumulated choices God doesn't have to 'do' anything. In effect the person concerned does it to themselves.

Lastly, as to whether God will or will not punish you for being a non-believer? That is a matter solely between you and God (assuming you ever decide one exists ). One things for sure it is not something anyone else gets to have a definitive opinion about, one way or the other. What gives them the right? IMO people who claim that right are skating on very thin ice - claiming for themselves something that is solely in Gods remit (its also being pretty pompous and arrogant).

 

Everyone is responsible for their own choices, yes, and that would include Gods being responsible for their choices. If they set the system a particular way, then they are responsible for it. If an architect builds a bridge that will fail when you walk across it, the architect is responsible for it, and especially so if you don't have any knowledge of the design and cross it as you would any other bridge.

 

What does "accepting Jesus into your heart" actually mean. Does it mean believing in what Jesus said? Or does it mean something else? It the statement a form of virtue signaling>

 

I don't see have it can be a case of having both free will and 'God being responsible' at the same time. Its pretty much got to be one or the other. As to whether the Universe is 'failed bridge' that's perhaps a separate debate - depending on whether your talking about the universe itself or just the upright bipeds inhabiting one obscure grain of sand. But according to Christianity at least I believe the 'plans' for the bridge have pretty much been made publicly available for some time. And after completion those plans also make it clear that's its the responsibility of the users to maintain it - in accordance with those plans. Fail to do so at and ...... splash! At least that's an argument that might be made.

 

I really hate answering this question because in a way I am answering for someone else. This in not my opinion but information based on many hours of debate and discussion from someone that has dedicated his whole life to this subject. To give you some background it all started when I asked him why evangelicals do not seem to believe in works like Catholics or the Jehovah Witness. He told me that is not true. He said even though they do not mandate works like other religions if you study the bible and the teachings of Jesus and accept him as your Lord and Savior the works will automatically come. This is why in his opinion it is not just about asking Jesus for forgiveness in your deathbed.

(My interpretation, could be totally wrong. I will ask him again when covid is over and the family gets together again.)
I think what he means though is if you lived a life of sin and later in life study Jesus teachings and "accept Jesus into your heart" then you will be forgiven. But if you simply claim to be a Christian your whole life and attend church or whatever but still sin indiscriminately expecting Jesus to forgive you it won't happen because anyone that has accepted Jesus into their heart won't go around committing sins. It is like claiming to be a Christian but never getting the point.
(I am sure people will say what about the fact that man is flawed and will always sin and that is why Jesus died for them? I am not sure. I really don't have the answers and I would suggest speaking to you own religious leader. I simply tried to answer a question based on very little knowledge of the subject. That is why I qualified it "Accord to my..." )

 

I don't see why not. If a robber points a gun at you and demands your wallet, and you refuse, and he kills you, is your death entirely your own fault or does your killer have some responsibility too?

It gets extra complicated when we talk about an all knowing creator being. If he created you knowing exactly what choices you would make, knowing it would be horrible for you and all around you, but he still makes you, is he not responsible?

Only if you believe one of the many contradicting "plans" are true, and happen to be correct about which one. It seems rather obvious to me that if there is a creator all powerful God, she doesnt wish to be believed in or understood by all.

Because being all powerful, she wouldnt be restricted by human communication like century old books. She could just have us all know. And it wouldn't take away our free will. It would enable it, allowing us to make informed decisions.

Except nothing is made so clear. If it was we wouldn't have atheists, and we wouldn't have multiple competing religions and sects within those religions.

 

You made some excellent points. Great work!!

 

Jesus didn't die for our sins. He died for our salvation. He didn't come to save us IN our sins, but FROM our sins. If our military fights and dies for our freedom. Do we honor them by throwing it away and not living worthily.

 

Thanks for a comprehensive answer. I don't fully understand what you are saying, but I appreciate the effort made to answer my question.

 

Could it be that his sacrifice gave you the opportunity, but not a guarantee?

All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.

- John 6:37.

 

Reality is not special knowledge. As I said, it is just that most do not see it. Like you seem to be, they are in a Socratic cave.

Let us have you information showing that things are not as they should be and just when we ran off the rails.

Regards
DL

 

IOW, Yahweh's justice will be altered when applied to human's.

Like that whole, --- genocidal gods are good gods notion, --- that Christians like for all the wrong reasons.

Regards
DL

 

Sorry I was unable to make it clearer. Maybe someone else here who is more well versed on this topic than I could weigh in.

 

We were already saved.

On the Day of Atonement, the High Priest conducts a sacrifice and says a prayer saving everyone who does not work on that day.

It so states in your bible that you haven't read and don't understand, but like to thump. The High Priest had been performing that ceremony for about 1,000 years before Jesus-one-of-many-1,000s-of-Christs came along.

All you have to do is sit around sipping wine and eating cheese on the Day of Atonement to be saved.

 

Good luck with that.

 

You can fool others. You can even fool yourself. But you can't fool God. However, if you know no better, then there is no fault. And mercy claims you. That said, I do not believe that anyone is beholden to automatically accept just anyone who comes along toting and quoting from the Bible. IMO, I dare say it would almost be better to remain blissfully ignorant than to be misled and misdirected on matters as crucial as the eternal welfare of your soul, heart, mind and spirit...risking being fashioned into something extra laborious from which to be freed, should the occasion necessitate. But to step up a notch from the benignity of blissful ignorance, I would suggest simply believing, trusting and being optimistic about God in general, while being pessimistic about all those who say God is over here, and no, God is over there. To me, belief in God is much like belief that things will work out, that the sun will rise, that your work will be successful, or that the meal you are preparing or are about to prepare will be good. Belief in God is the shining star of our hearts hope, the uncertain certainty, the almost mystical confidence that things will be okay. I mean, if God is willing to hide, then I am resolved to remembrance, which is not hard considering he pours out his reminders to us continually in a multitude of tributaries, nearly antiquating faith by the signs of his nearness. Have rivers no source?

 

Your statement that 'things are as they should be' is a rhetorical argument that is incapable of being proved or disproved - as is the existence or not of God. So there's no point in debating it further given our finite lifespans.

 

Are you calling the Yahweh-Jesus-Holy Flatulence-thing a liar?

Because it says in no uncertain words in the Old Testament what happens on the Day of Atonement and what you have to do to be saved.

And, no, letting the Jesus-thing fart in your heart is not part of the equation.

 

And as an additional note. You are literally contradicting yourself. If it is true as you claim that 'most (people) do not see it' then by default it cannot be common knowledge but instead is restricted to a minority. If this is the case then that minority of people have a 'special' knowledge of the Universe. Because according to you they are the ones who are perceptive & wise enough to see it. (And believe me you do come across as 'special'.)

So you can't have it both ways. If its not special knowledge then most everyone must know/has it - and you've just said they don't. If it isn't common knowledge then only minority of people must know it/have it and, by default they have special 'knowledge' - which you claim is not the case.

Make up your mind and perhaps get over yourself.

 

No, its his fault, your not the only one in that scenario with free will, the robber has free will as well. He can decide whether or not to pull the trigger, he to has choice (for that matter he can choose whether or not to go out and rob someone in the first place).

Now we're veering into deeper philosophical and scientific areas than I really feel competent to comment upon. I say both because the question has elements of philosophy and quantum mechanics in its nature! I suppose you could argue that God by default knows the inevitable outcome of all possible decisions you might/will make make but not which one you actually will make. Go through door A - God knows the outcome, go through door B - he knows the result of that decision as well, just not which door you will pick until you choose it.[/QUOTE]

Yep confusing isn't it. So much choice, so little we really know for certain. Let me know when you find the ultimate answer to the big questions and I'll do the same.

As for the rest - you could argue that God has little or no say over how people (religious leaders included) decide to define him/her or what rules they lay down in his her name. The preacher on a pulpit (any preacher on any pulpit, anywhere) is as free as the next person to make claims about the nature of God. Which one is right - you have free will, insight, experience and knowledge - choose, or not, is your will.

A theist would argue that God does exactly that but we just don't see it. The message is there but you have to look.

So tell me what ever is clear or easy in life? And that's just normal day to getting along with other people let alone bringing God into the mix. In Christian theology life is a gift, a journey to be undertaken with free will. And we don't know all the answers from the get go because if we did then we wouldn't be truly free. We'd have the freedom given of toddlers - free do do whatever we want within the strict boundaries set by our parents only those boundaries would never, disappear. We'd never be truly free of them, our entire lives mapped out from day one with no control, toddlers forever until the day we die.

Just some thoughts anyway. Cheers

 

Do Gods not have choice too?

Could be. But then God wouldn't be all-knowing.

Confusing indeed. I do think I found the answer. It isn't God. That's backwards. It is dog. Dog is unconditional love.

Yes, but if the message is there, but hidden, and we have to work to figure it out, and we all reach different answers... that tells me something about the God's intentions (assuming they are all knowing and all powerful).

Then again, maybe I'm right and the answer is dog.

 

They may not - perhaps the ultimate irony.

For the rest - to the best of my knowledge God as never shat upon my expensive handwoven rug. If only I could say the same thing of my dog.

 

I don't agree with your conclusion, but can't help but admire the logic. Freakin' Hilarious!