Psaki: Even After Vaccine, You Still Need to Social Distance and Wear Masks

Which bit of "we should bite the bullet and open up fully" do you not understand? Or are you one of those that think you are so brave saying you won't take the vaccine? I mean you cry because someone told you to wear a mask for a few minutes a day

 

Sorry, but YOU proposed a necessary modiication after claiming no modification was required.

 

We'll continue to see high numbers of deaths and time lost due to serious illness unles we actually take measures to reduce this problem.

As long as large numbers have ANY level of infection, this virus will find new ways to take its toll on the human population.

By gaining adequate coverage of vaccinations, things CAN get back to normal. It's essentially an artificial way to achieve "herd immunity".

And, yes, 400,000 needless deaths per year is not safe enough.

 

How disingenuous. I'm shocked. The 400,000 deaths were pre-vaccinations, when the virus was completely novel. This is no longer the case. Implying that we can expect 400k deaths annually going forward is horseshit.

 

Your post implied that safety is impossible and that those who are looking for safty are cowards.

What the heck do you think I SHOULD make of that post of yours??

The CDC guidelines for those vaccinated are that we still need to follow protocols that are in effect for those who are not vaccinated - that is, masks, hand washing, staying away from group activity, etc.

We'll know when we can relax by watching data concerning infection rate, death rate, hospital capacity, etc.

If there are too many morons and sociopaths, then it will take longer.

 

I'm with you brother. I am going to Las Vegas in April with family (a lot of family) and we are going to party. In the late summer, I am going out to Florida / Alabama border on the Gulf. There is an amazing live music bar there called Florabama, it's the best I've ever been to. We are going to look at homes while we are there and see if we can accept the humidity on a permanent basis. The plan is to buy a few homes. One would be extra nice (ours) the rest will be nice (rentals).

 

~ If you actually believe it is that simple you will have no problem when your job/income freedom of movement disappears as an " ultimate test of intelligence and humanity" .
Look back at the Hong Kong flu in 1968. Same thing - different politics.

 

~ My home in Florida will likely be sold by the time you visit - but take a look at Stuart in Martin County. South east - close to the beach. Not as many direct hits by hurricanes and weather is more mild compared to the rest of the state. Not as many bugs/insects !
{ Suggestion : Look for homes with a pool. }

 

There were a very large percentage in the study who were absolutely immune. They were exposed to SARS-COV-2 and were not infected. If you do not have infected cells replicating virus there is no risk of infecting others. I am not aware of studies in humans looking for transmission of respiratory viruses without infection but I’ve run across such studies on coronavirus in feedlot cattle and it just doesn’t happen. At least not at detectable rates. The idea non infected persons are transmission risks for C19 is frankly absurd. I wish you would post links to where you are getting this information. I’d love to see them.

Read the study provided. The control group without antibodies had over 200 infections, about half each asymptomatic and symptomatic. The study group with antibodies had TWO infections, both asymptomatic, and even suspected of being false positives for antibodies at the start of the study. Note, these are infections looked for with PCR testing. This is actually better data than Phizer phase 3 data which relied on reporting of symptoms to determine infections.

On age of subjects, of course you aren’t going to have 90 year old healthcare workers. The point is sterilizing immunity does exist contrary to your assertions. Vaccine trials have shown good results with all demographics, not just 38 year olds. And studies on natural infection show more variation in antibodies based on severity of disease than anything else. Since I’ve been kind enough to present solid evidence for sterilizing immunity in individuals (just like I claimed), perhaps you can provide evidence to the contrary. Not opinions. Solid evidence that the study I provided is not valid.

I’ve been clear from the beginning there is functional immunity in C19 cases and sterilizing immunity. I’ve clearly demonstrated sterilizing immunity you claim doesn’t exist. To continue to claim sterilizing immunity doesn’t exist is denial of science.

Facts are not dangerous. Lying and misleading people is dangerous. Dishonesty has exacerbated this pandemic in numerous ways. We already see people wondering what the point of vaccination is if it doesn’t confer immunity. I would much rather be honest about immunity and encourage vaccination than discourage vaccination by misrepresenting immunity.

The Israel link is not intended to “prove” anything. The study of healthcare workers I provided is the solid evidence needed. The Israeli link is to show the tabloid understanding of this issue I’m correcting is not based in science. You always want to follow “expert” opinions, so I’ve given you an Israeli expert to demonstrate there is more to this than journalist’s opinions. The science is quite clear to those of us who depend on evidence as opposed to journalist’s opinions or desires.

As far as longevity of immunity, I’ve been fighting for honesty on this front for months since the first studies on decreasing antibody levels came out. Journalists would leave out pertinent facts about neutralizing antibodies fading much slower than non neutralizing antibodies in the studies. Since those first studies showing declines in first wave antibodies the common narrative has been immunity only lasts a couple months. Now that studies show eight months of detectable neutralizing antibodies the people who were stuck on two months have been drug kicking and screaming to the admission immunity can last six months. There is an obsession with denying current research and I for one am perplexed. It’s like nobody wants good news. Same with when memory B cells were discovered for C19. Nobody would report it and everyone seemed offended that their discovery led credence to long term immunity. T cellular immunity, same thing. There is just palpable resistance to any good news on immunity.

The jury is still out, but each new study shows immunity to be more durable than the last.

New strains are certainly cause for concern. But we can be honest with people about what strains are covered by vaccines and which aren’t. We don’t need to claim there isn’t sterilizing immunity to any of them. That serves no purpose.

I agree with you on this point. Thanks for answering.

 

... and the bugs! That is a concern. But, yes... I will check that out. Port St. Lucie Nuclear Plant is a customer. I have been there a few times and it was real nice. I should consider that, but I have family in the Gulf Region, since I am also considering Tennessee and Texas, that part of Florida is a good option too.

 

~ I hear good things about Tennessee .

 

I made no such claim. The one-way valve lets out your air out. A typical mask does, too, but not as much. Cover the exhalation valve with a paper or cloth mask.

 

This is one of the better links I've found for this topic: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/...ests-per-thousand?time=2020-02-20..2021-02-08

As the link shows, we test more than a lot of our peers, and we test substantially more than the poorer countries in the comparison.

 

Why not do both? Have the unhealthy isolate, while the rest of us can work and live mostly normal lives.

 

Technology plays a part, but what we know of the Spanish Flu suggests that it would still be more deadly today than COVID is. Now, beating it would be easier mostly due to it not having a long incubation period.

COVID seems to be a relatively less lethal pandemic but with high contagiousness. The long incubation period makes containment difficult, with or without technology.

 

Spanish Flu killed 675,000 people in 1918. So that's already more than the number you just quoted. And when considering that the population of the US was 103.2 million, that means that the toll was about 3.5 times as significant as it would be today.

Call me out of my mind if you want, but math is clearly not your strong suit.

I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't take some precautions. I just don't think it's worth all the state intervention.

If that's the case, then why did many states put COVID infected people in nursing homes?

You seem to assume that I meant having the state enforce it. I was thinking more along the lines of letting people make their own decisions. Most people with significant health conditions know their level of risk. They will act accordingly. If they choose to risk their health, well, that's on them. The most the state should do is try to help out financially for those who need to work from home. Employers could be given tax breaks for allowing their vulnerable employees to work from home, for example.

Give it some time. Biden will likely impose a federal lockdown that you guys are begging for.

Fair enough. Here in NC, people aren't so afraid, and people dine out a lot. Our economy is doing relatively well. I won't be surprised if the feds find a way to screw that up, however.

But you're probably right that a lot of other Americans have a lot of fear, which leads to less economic growth. If your bourgeois neighbors want to stay at home, that's their loss, not mine.

We'll see about that. Americans were already getting less healthy overall before all of this, but I'm sure it will be convenient for the shelter-shamers to blame any further decline on COVID.

So, basically, even the vaccines are a bandaid on a bullet wound. I don't see any reason to keep us restricted for the next decade, but it sounds like you might be favorable towards that.

 

I'm referring to how private insurance drives up the costs of healthcare in this system. It's extremely inefficient, and even a lot of states have banned medical providers from accepting straight cash. You're literally required to use insurance in a lot of areas if you even want service at all.

If we allowed a more open market that didn't require the use of insurance, costs would be substantially lower. If medical providers could have their own payment plans without insurance being the middle man, it would be cheaper as well.

Some employers do have good insurance plans, but to most of us, insurance is more of a burden than a help when figuring in the added bureaucratic costs.

 

Thank you.

 

The problem is staying healthy. Plenty of otherwise healthy people have contracted this virus, and even those with no symptoms can pass it along. I'm sure you already know this, that the only way to rid ourselves of this virus is to stop feeding it. That's why it's mutating into more contagious strains.

 

I beg to differ.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_A_virus_subtype_H1N1

Same virus in 2009-2010.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-re...=From April 12, 2009 to,the (H1N1)pdm09 virus.

"From April 12, 2009 to April 10, 2010, CDC estimated there were 60.8 million cases (range: 43.3-89.3 million), 274,304 hospitalizations (range: 195,086-402,719), and 12,469 deaths (range: 8868-18,306) in the United States due to the (H1N1)pdm09 virus."

I like to do my homework.

 

My math is just fine; thanks for the personal attack. I don't do those ("out of your mind" being a linguistic expression indicating that your OPINION is misguided, not a personal attack), so you do you; I'll continue to debate the matter with class. (By the way, my all caps are for emphasis, not for yelling).

Without looking up, I just had the 600,000 number in my mind. Sure, now I did look up and the CDC *ESTIMATES* the number at 675,000 (while the number for the SARS-CoV-2 is rock solid, despite any misguided ideas to the contrary you hear here and there). The CDC, maybe to keep the population taking it seriously enough and accepting the flu shot, which unfortunately less than 50% of Americans accept yearly, has always been somewhat generous with their flu estimates. Anyway, you say it was worse in proportion. Fair enough. But there are two issues, here.

One, the Spanish Flu is over. Covid-19 is not over yet. We don't even know how the new variants will behave. It is not AT ALL excluded that we will exceed 675,000 deaths (although I don't think we will). Remember, the Spanish Flu was actually not just a 1918 pandemic; it was a 1918-19 pandemic over two years and with several waves, the last one being worse than the first ones. So, don't start counting victory after our first year of the Covid-19 pandemic. When it's all said and done, this pandemic may end up with higher absolute numbers than the Spanish Flu's. But even if we don't have this many deaths (hopefully we won't, if we're fast enough to develop booster shots for the new variants and able to deploy them fast), you are taking into account the population at the time for the Spanish Flu, but not taking into account the vast difference in medical technology and sanitation.

At the time of the Spanish Flu, we didn't have antibiotics to treat secondary infections, no treatments like enoxaparin, remdesivir, dexamethasone, and monoclonal antibodies existed. No advanced ventilators. No ICUs equipped like ours. If we had a time machine, went back to 1918, and unleashed the SARS-CoV-2 then, I GUARANTEE that the lethality would far surpass 675,000 people.

Remember what happened in the beginning of the pandemic, when we were still without the various therapeutics (as we were erratically experimenting with hydroxychloroquine) and still doing the ventilation wrongly (we first assumed we should treat this like the SARS and the MERS; we were mistaken)? The case fatality rate was close to 5% in many places, and at least 3% in all places. Apply that to the population in 1918 and you'll get an idea of how lethal this thing would have been in 1918, because the CFR would NOT have dropped to 1% like we're fortunately able to do, now. Also, do realize that the SARS-CoV-2 is MORE infectious than the H1N1 influenza virus.

So, let's say we unleashed the SARS-CoV-2 in 1918 and had 60% of the population catching it, with a 5% CFR. 3,096,000 deaths. Even if you cut the CFR by 3 and make it 1.6% (absurdly low if you don't have the therapeutics above), you'd still end up with 1,032,000 people dead if we transplanted the SARS-CoV-2 to 1918. So, the bottom line is, even if you compare the SARS-CoV-2 to the worst H1N1 influenza virus ever, the SARS-CoV-2 still gets to be, virologically speaking, more contagious and more lethal.

Again, the state intervention has been much less strict than you guys pretend, and rather toothless in many places. In my state, for example, there were decrees and orders and all but NO ENFORCEMENT so they became little more than suggestions.

That was a grave mistake that has NOTHING to do with my line of argumentation here. You may want to look at my posting history, when I said that Governor Cuomo should be removed from office and sued.

Sorry, but after 40 years of practice of Medicine, I am very well equipped to tell you that lay people are not known for making wise health decisions. No, people will NOT act accordingly to their level of risk; including because many ignore it. Like I said, of the estimated 100 million Americans who have hypertension, many don't even know that they have it.

Please kindly point to a post of mine where I am begging for a lockdown. Every time someone asked me, I said, this ship has sailed; no more lockdowns. And no, Biden will not likely impose a federal lockdown... it's the opposite, he is advocating for opening the schools, for example. All that he wants is for more people to mask up, and faster vaccine rollout.

The Feds are actually trying to help with FEMA setting up vaccination camps. And go on Open Table and look up available restaurant tables in NC, if you will. It's guaranteed that you'll find lots of spots. I'll be surprised if a lot of places are filled to the allowed capacity. Again, it's not the decrees, it's the virus.

My bourgeois neighbors who fear a real threat are being prudent, not paranoid. I don't think you realize what real loss is. Talk to the families of the 475,000 Americans who have died so far, and counting, for a sample of real loss. No, if my neighbors are being prudent and survive this pandemic until we get it under good control, that's their gain, not their loss.

I don't do this shelter-blamer game. I'm speaking strictly from the standpoint of Medicine. Yep, we'll see about that. Mark my words, the sequelae of Covid-19 will be a significant burden.

The vaccines are a formidable tool. They depend on people accepting them, and on the ability to tweak them to new variants and doing the logistics and raw materials all over again. While they are a formidable tool, there are more things that need to be done to control the pandemic, beyond the vaccine. But again, I'm not advocating for lockdowns. I'm advocating for better masks, worn the right way with an educational campaign (I'm flabergasted that the - thankfully gone - head of the CDC in the Trump administration kept promising an educational campaign but never delivered it; we never had what I routinely see on foreign TV channels in my satellite subscriptions) and better vaccine acceptance.

No, it doesn't sound like I am favorable to us getting restricted FOR THE NEXT DECADE. Thanks for the hyperbole. I never said that. When asked, I said "a bit longer until we see the behavior of the new variants and how we can tweak the vaccines" - which is scientifically feasible by this coming fall.

 

@Serfin' USA read this:
https://www.mdedge.com/hematology-o...riant+doubling+every+10+days+in+U.S.&sso=true

The paper itself:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.06.21251159v1

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.13.21249642v1

Findings Between 18 June and 09 November 2020, 44 reinfections (2 probable, 42 possible) were detected in the baseline positive cohort of 6,614 participants, collectively contributing 1,339,078 days of follow-up. This compares with 318 new PCR positive infections and 94 antibody seroconversions in the negative cohort of 14,173 participants, contributing 1,868,646 days of follow-up. The incidence density per 100,000 person days between June and November 2020 was 3.3 reinfections in the positive cohort, compared with 22.4 new PCR confirmed infections in the negative cohort. The adjusted odds ratio was 0.17 for all reinfections (95% CI 0.13-0.24) compared to PCR confirmed primary infections. The median interval between primary infection and reinfection was over 160 days.


Also, I never claimed sterilization immunity does not exist.

You seem to be missing the point. If the government came out now and said that those who have received the vaccine no longer need to wear a mask or follow any of the other advised protective measures then that would be the most irresponsible action ever taken by a government.

 

Bullshit. Simply bullshit. Get both doses of the vaccination, wait the requisite amount of time to become immune/resistant, then live your f***ing life.
If you are compromised then get the shots.

 

LOL at you not including the link that demonstrates that you are not guaranteed to become immune/resistant after having the vaccine. You're quite inept at reading as evidenced by both of your last two posts to me! Oh, and which strains of the virus will you be immune to? And vaccine lessens the symptoms, it does not give you 100% immunity, it even says so on the tin