The state of the vaccines

It's a bit late and we're in the wrong thread but I would like to know more about the subject. Maybe another time in our farming thread?

 

Ok. I’m a bit confused as to why growers would accept hybrids that don’t “breed true” so require continuous purchase of seed, but reject continuous purchase of seed on the basis of legality.

I do understand abstaining from practices on principle even when at economic cost to the abstainer though and agree with you that in a perfect world the ability to always save seed would be ideal

 

http://www.politicalforum.com/index...nd-conservation.578753/page-4#post-1072514642

 

Like I had anticipated in other posts in another thread, it seems like the fatal blood clot cases have an auto-antibody mechanism involved. Unpublished preliminary findings by doctors and scientists in Norway and Germany seem to support this idea. The most severe cases had CVST (cerebral venous sinus thrombosis), like I also anticipated that these cases weren't the run-of-the-mill venous thrombosis in the lower extremities. Among the researchers, there is professor Paal Andre Holme of the Oslo University Hospital. The Germans hail from Greifswald University Clinic.

Several hypothesis are being considered. One of them is that the patients, unbeknownst to everybody, had Covid-19, actually; had been infected almost simultaneously with the vaccines. They are dead so I don't know if they were tested at a time when they would show up as positive. Maybe they were tested but were false-negative. I do not have any info on that aspect We know that Covid-19 can do that (the blood clots) actually at very alarming rates, so this might possibly explain the whole thing. It is also interesting that most of these patients were younger women, by significant margins. CVST has been associated with pregnancy and birth-control pills.

Scientists are saying that it makes no sense that this has been only seen with the AstraZeneca shot because others target similar parts of the S protein; therefore, only the AstraZeneca shot causing these clots, sounds unlikely and could therefore be due to other factors rather than the vaccine, because if this is actually a vaccine mechanism then it should have been seen with the other, similar vaccines too (and it wasn't; the Sputnik V and the Janssen vaccines are similar to the AstraZeneca). So it could indeed be coincidental since the AstraZeneca shot was the one being used in this population; maybe the cases had factors like unknown previous Covid-19 infection, pregnancy, or birth control use, and these factors are unique to the population in question rather than to the vaccine.

I find this idea a bit duplicitous and strange... because one might also speculate that it's something else in the AstraZeneca shot causing it, not just the viral genes that they contain and are similar to that of other vaccines, so that actually the issue not being seen with similar vaccines is actually an argument for it being caused by the AstraZeneca shot.

But anyway, this idea of unknown Covid-19 infection or other intervening factors is attractive. I won't be surprised if the end conclusion finds that the AstraZeneca shot is completely innocent of this issue. The damage to public perception, thought, has been done and is likely irreversible. Most European countries that had paused the vaccination with AstraZeneca are resuming it, but it may be too late to recover public confidence.

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I'm glad that our farmers have taken their farming discussion elsewhere, as it was completely off-topic for this thread.

 

Some of those who suspended use of the vaccine have placed restrictions though. France has said it's only safe for the over 55s now having previously said it was not safe for the over 65s.
It's a hot mess and now only 20% of the French population say they think it's safe. The 55 year old head of the French health ministry took the AZ vaccine yesterday.
In a country with a very low number of vaccines administered and production issues with the Pfizer vaccination this is terrible news.

Oh and sorry for the off topic discussion, I know you don't like it and this is an important thread.

 

AstraZeneca and Oxford have been unlucky (some of it, their own doing). First, the trial paused due to a case of transverse myelitis. Then, messy trials with sloppy methodology and dosing mistakes. Then, lousy efficacy data in South Africa. Then, this. I mean, this vaccine probably won't recover from this hot mess.

I guess it will become the vaccine of the countries that can't get any better (which might still be helpful).

Not that I think it is really lousy. I think it suffered from a series of mistakes. Probably in itself it is not so bad, but it is being perceived as bad, and it is dragging down the perception for all Covid-19 vaccines.

 

Yes I am looking for the link but some countries have apparently restarted using the AstraZeneca vaccine but in the older population

 

Hasn’t stopped Europe from holding up shipments to Australia

 

I think the "some countries" is only France, as far as I know. Do you know of others? Sweden hasn't restarted at all. Italy has restarted with no restrictions but did allow people who decline it, to not lose their opportunity to get a Covid-19 vaccine; they'll be recalled when another kind gets available.

 

Hasn't stopped Canada finalising a deal to buy 1.5 million doses of the AZ vaccine from the US either. The US is also sending 2.5 million to Mexico.

 

Germany has restarted.

The AZ decision war political. Because of the 3rd wave, UK variance, all politicians are extremely insecure, some countries will have elections this year, on top of it. Remember what a screw up this meant for the US, concerning Covid.
They are in a panic mode. The EU screwed up on the contracts, no priority clause and is unwilling to do what the US did, export prohibition.
Read a article in the FAZ about geting a vaccination in one of the German vaccination centers. Just getting through the stages of the beaucracy in those centers takes nearly 1 hour.
If you are interested I send you a pm, about my experience, how it is in my county. Will not do that in public, because I am so friking glad that I got my to vaccines.

 

BBC is reporting that Germany has only given a first jab to 2% of the population.
When Germany loses it's usual efficiency you know something's gone horribly wrong.
UK at around 27% and over half the adult population.

 

I'm also very surprised at Germany's troubles. We're used to thinking of them as highly efficient, like the Japanese.

 

There are two kinds of Sinopharm vaccines (Beijing and Wuhan). They are missing CanSino which has been approved too, in China and a couple of Middle Eastern countries.
For those who don't know, the EpiVacCorona is Russian too, done by the Vektor Institute (while the Sputnik V, pronounced as Vee rather than 5, is done by Gamaleya).
Novavax (USA), RIBSP (Kazakhstan), and Curevac (Germany) are likely to be the next three to be approved.

Then there are these, running behind:

ZyCov-D - India (Zydus Cadilla) - DNA
AGO302-COVID19 - Japan (AnGes - Osaka University - Takara) - DNA
GRAd-COV2 - Italy (ReiThera) - Adenovirus vector
ZF2001 - China (Anhui Zhifei Longcom) - Receptor binding domain subunit
Soberana 2 - Cuba (Instituto Finlay de Vacunas) - Spike protein subunit fused with tetanus vaccine
CoVLP - Canada (Medicago) - plant-based infused with viral genes producing protein shells
Cover Biopharmaceuticals - Dynavax - China - USA - Spike protein subunit
Institute of Medical Biology - China - Inactivated virus

 

Germans' reputation for efficiency is largely a triumph beyond the grave of their WW2 propaganda. If you've ever seen them "plunder" a buffet table you know the truth is otherwise. (And btw, it was a German friend who used the verb "plundern" to describe their behavior.)

 

I am not.
Germany is not good when it comes to improvisation. It is rather good in organization.The steady eddy they do better than anybody, that machine, but everything has to be organized, regulated to perfection. This is a problem Germany sometimes has, from industry to government, it has to be perfect

 

LOL

My exposure to Germans is not huge. I've visited Germany a few times, as a tourist most of the times (mostly, Berlin, Munich, Nuremberg, and a couple of their wine regions and some other towns), and for work twice (once in Berlin, once in Heilderberg). During the tourism trips my interaction with them was minimal, not going beyond the usual tour operators, vineyard owners, hotel concierges, etc., who were all highly efficient; but unlike in a place like Italy or Spain, the locals don't befriend you on the streets and bars and don't spontaneously talk to you, the "foreigner." During the two business trips, they were also highly efficient and professional. I did not find them particularly friendly, not even in the business trips, which is pretty much the opposite of what I've encountered in my numerous work trips to a place like Brazil. While not all work environments are as friendly as what I've encountered in Brazil (being friendly is a marked characteristic of their culture), in most of them there is at least some good camaraderie. Hm... not as much in Germany. They tended to be cold and reserved and job-focused, with little interest in social interactions.

Sure, maybe what I'm talking about is a stereotype. Maybe it's my fault rather than theirs. But I don't think so. I'm pretty convivial and had no trouble befriending people in other nations. It's practically only in Germany that I encountered this kind of coldness (also in Austria, but then, it's a Germanic culture - although I did feel that while true of Vienna, in Salzburg people were a lot more relaxed and friendly). Maybe it's because they don't like Americans, given WWII memories? I don't know, I'm just speculating. I do understand that modern Germans relate little to their dark history. But I don't know, maybe they are not really fond of Americans, for some reason? They feel we're dumb Americans, LOL? Possible.

I did once have a German girlfriend. Well, she was fabulous. But I guess that's different. And she was an expat. She did use to say that she hated Germany which was precisely why she left and went to live abroad, and she did not consider herself as a typical German.

I'd like to hear what our German friend @gnoib thinks of my rather prejudicial view, above. If he wants to correct me, I'll stand corrected.

 

Paralysis of analysis.
I think the EU has to take a fair bit of the blame too. As a remain supporter it pains me to admit it.

 

I lived there for three years as a child. Less than 30 years after the second world war had ended. We moved there in '72 when I was 7.
I found them to be very helpful and friendly. Maybe it's different as a child. I remember my father saying that no one wanted to talk about the war and that they wanted to put it behind them.
I've heard it said that there's a big north south divide. The former being the more industrious and less gregarious.

 

Not a full answer but perhaps useful to you: In the US "politeness" is assumed to include an increment of friendliness. Not so in Germany. There, politeness comprises the proper execution of expected social forms, without any personal engagement one way or the other. Germans are perplexed, for example, by our habit of saying, "Nice to meet you," when we meet someone. Their question: How can you mean it? You don't know the person.

 

Interesting.

 

The first thing I would check out is if the individuals with clotting problems had antibodies to the ChAdOx1 viral vector before vaccination. If it’s an auto antibody mechanism this is where it would be logical to start since we are only seeing this with this vectored vaccine even though the s proteins synthesized by this vaccine and the mRNA ones are so similar.

I know during this vaccine development it was determined individuals with antibodies for this adenovirus were rare but there was concern the presence of antibodies could decrease the efficacy of the vaccine in those individuals. I don’t believe any decrease in efficacy was observed in trials from this effect, but presence of antibodies may be triggering some kind of out of the ordinary antibody response.

 

This concerted effort to attack the Astra vaccine is getting on my nerves. This does seem to be a conspiracy. Now we have Denmark reporting of one death. No where in main stream news that I have seen has it been mentioned that 113 people died in first month in the US after having the Pfizer vaccine yet we have European country's population refusing the Astra vaccine and waiting for the Phizer vaccine which won't be available until the end of the year for most people. Yet they are all experiencing a third wave with thousands of deaths. Who is behind this scare mongering

 

Yes, but the Sputnik V and the Janssen shots are also vectored vaccines. I think the idea that the AstraZeneca should be given 12 weeks apart and then its efficacy is better, has exactly to do with antibodies against the adenovirus fading after twelve weeks, given that they use the same strain in both shots. Russia's Gamaleya Institute smartly used two different strains of the adenovirus for first and second doses. Janssen is only one dose.

More came out of the German team. They identified 13 CVST cases among 1.6 million recipients. They developed recommendations for diagnosis of the auto-immune antibody and treatment (with blood thinners and immunoglobulin against that antibody). They postulated that they had more cases, proportionally, than other countries, because they were only using the vaccine for those 64 and younger. Apparently the issue occurs in younger patients rather than in the senior ones. They said the syndrome causes persistent headaches, dizziness, and impaired vision, and said that the symptoms show up a good chunk of time before death, which allows time for effective and life-saving treatment if promptly diagnosed. The Norway team is now positive that they've found the issue and that it *is* linked to the AstraZeneca shot.

This is pretty fast research and treatment. But the newly-found certainty that it is indeed the AZ shot that is causing the problem and not a coincidental issue not above the statistical incidence for blood clots in the general population, will likely damage even more the reputation of the shot, even though the reaction is very rare and efficient and life-saving treatment has been designed.

I have not read the release by the German Society for Thrombosis and Hemostasis which published the recommendations for diagnosis and treatment (which cannot be given preventatively; it is only recommended for those already diagnosed with the syndrome). I do not know exactly what component or mechanism of the vaccine is triggering these auto-antibodies. Both the German and the Norwegian teams said they'll submit their findings to The Lancet in the next few days, then we'll learn more.

The incidence of the problem in Germany, 0.0008%, is again far smaller than the risks posed by the virus itself, and that's the country that had the highest proportional incidence.

It also appears that the shot, even with this problem, is perfectly safe for people older than 55.

The most prudent course of action in my opinion appears to be: resume immediately vaccination with the AstraZeneca shot for those above the age of 55; then diffuse widely the means to diagnose and treat the rare complication, and then resume vaccination for those younger than 55, with the recommendation for immediate assistance if they develop persistent headaches, dizziness, and troubled vision, much like the much bigger incidence of anaphylaxis doesn't stop the vaccine from being given; just, epi-pens are made available.

Norway, Sweden, and Denmark have not resumed vaccination with the AZ shot. Norway said they won't (I'm not sure if they'll revise this in the next few days or are saying that they won't, period). The other two said they need more time to explore the findings.