Make hydride legal and no need for gas. Convert water to hyrogen

Discussion in 'Science' started by Patricio Da Silva, Apr 3, 2021.

  1. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    59,467
    Likes Received:
    16,350
    Trophy Points:
    113
    One still has to figure out the losses related to running a hydrogen or hydride plant, as no process like that is without various kinds of losses. And, the same goes for the plant in the car for turning that back into electricity.

    As a practical matter, the issues of how refilling works, what pressures are expected, etc. all have to be standardized. So, if your car expects a tank of highly pressuried hydrogen, you would need to buy equipment for that, and supply the required electricity.

    I just think that electricity is so much easier to deal with. You plug in your car at night and you're ready for another 300 miles - with more to come as battery technology advances. And, if you have solar, you can use that for anything you want, including selling it back to the power company.
     
  2. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    59,467
    Likes Received:
    16,350
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I'm a huge believer in public transit.

    I think the electric car story will be a little better than that.

    Remember that prices of new technology drop with volume and as initial investment gets paid off. In past years, people said the same thing about personal computers.

    In the year 2000, PCMagazine carried ads for computer memory at $1.50 per megabyte. A 16 gb cell phone or lap top would cost $24,000 just for the memory.

    In case of cars, it's obviously more about batter tech than memory tech, but the general principle of lowering costs as volumes increase and technology develops.

    Plus, perfectly serviceable electric cars will start entering the used car market. And, one must remember that electric cars are cheaper to operate because of fuel cost and because they take less maintenance.
     
  3. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    59,467
    Likes Received:
    16,350
    Trophy Points:
    113
    He pitches solar energy as free.

    Solar energy is NOT free.

    One must buy pannels.

    More importantly, the KWHs generated are just as valuable as the electricity purchased from the power company.
     
  4. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    59,467
    Likes Received:
    16,350
    Trophy Points:
    113
    He should be left in the entertainment box until he comes up with something that has a remote chance of being acted on.

    Now that we have cars running on electricity, his claim that electricity is free is majorly self defeating.
     
  5. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    59,467
    Likes Received:
    16,350
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Okay - I had so little to do that I watched them.

    Those vids strengthened my view that his hydrogen factory is interesting from a chemistry point of view, but no more than a crazy personal hobby, expecially given that we have cost effective home solar power today.
     
  6. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Messages:
    31,231
    Likes Received:
    16,926
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Then /////
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2021
  7. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Messages:
    31,231
    Likes Received:
    16,926
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Which was my only point. Anyone with as much technical savvy as Bob, could have a vehicle run on cheap energy for the rest of their life.

    Just sayin', and that, my friend, is a true statement, not that anyone is interested.

    The secondary point is that hydride is not an unsafe nor dangerous, substance, and I see no reason it should be illegal to purchase ( it's legal to make at home). Were it legal, then his solution could be 'world wide', indeed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2021
  8. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Messages:
    31,231
    Likes Received:
    16,926
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    That wasn't the point. But, of course, you're not interested in the point.
     
  9. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Messages:
    31,231
    Likes Received:
    16,926
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    That wasn't the point. Obviously, owing to the fact that it is illegal to purchase hydride, it can never 'take off'.

    If it were legal to purchase, then it would 'take off'. THAT was the point , i.e., the insanity of making hydride illegal.
     
  10. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Messages:
    31,231
    Likes Received:
    16,926
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    What do you know about the subject?

    The fact of the matter is that, with a little bit of technical knowledge about physics, one can, indeed
    build a simple but effective home-made particle accelerator.
     
  11. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Messages:
    31,231
    Likes Received:
    16,926
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I don't know, you'll have to ask Bob.
     
  12. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Messages:
    31,231
    Likes Received:
    16,926
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    If you want to pin someone down, nothing is free. He's using the term loosely.
     
  13. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    59,467
    Likes Received:
    16,350
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I see NO support for this cost claim.

    Today, the at-scale manufacturing of hydrogen (from water) still leaves hydrogen cars at a disadvantage.

    Also, I'd also point out that he has one heck of a yard and lab full of equipment.
    My bet is that hydride is far from being a secret.

    Why are corporations that produce hydroven (and are fully capable of his level of hidride manufacture and use) not doing that today? A factory could have one stage in their process include a pathway of raw maerial to hydride to hydride use. Without real evidence, I would doubt that would be flagged as illegal. For one thing, it would never be on the market, wouldn't have to be stored in quantity. Wuoldn't have to be transported. Etc.
     
  14. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    59,467
    Likes Received:
    16,350
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That's not good enough.

    This issue is one of competing fuel types.

    Obvioulsy, price isn't the only competitive feature, but it is highly significant.

    One of the reasons hydrogen cars aren't taking off is that the miles/$ isn't competititve.
     
  15. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2017
    Messages:
    27,695
    Likes Received:
    21,094
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Using electrolysis to create fuel for a hydrogen combustion engine is inefficient relative most other methods of combustion. However, it is far easier (cheaper) to achieve reliable energy independence via this method than most others, as it does not involve any specialized materials or equipment. Any source of electricity (like solar) can be used to turn water into the fuel, which can then be stored (theoretically indefinitely) or used in a vehicle. Any gasoline combustion motor should in theory be able to be modified to run on hydrogen with relatively few modifications, similar to modifying a motor to run on propane or natural gas, which essentially involves replacing a liquid fuel delivery system with a pressurized gas fuel delivery system. To put bluntly, this is a good option for an individual DIY transition away from fossil fuels. Its inefficiency makes it unattractive as a social direction. Things like the addition of the lithium 6 deuteride that (iiuc) decreases the volume of space needed to store the H, is one step forward in increasing the efficiency of the process as a whole. Although, I'm not sure if we really want particle accelerators all over the place manufacturing lithium 6 deuteride on an industrial scale... it may lead to further developement of more attractive methods of increasing the efficiency and thus the social scale of hydrogen as a fuel option.
     
  16. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    Messages:
    14,838
    Likes Received:
    4,814
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There are lots of claims in those videos but very little actual evidence. The only aspect actually demonstrated is the (relatively) easy part of separating hydrogen from water. He doesn't even try to explain how he has managed to store many times more hydrogen with a hydride than anyone else has before or since (if he'd really found an effective method, he could and should have patented it). He also makes some claims about safety which, if he was really talking about lithium-6 deuteride, would have been simply false (I'm not expert but it's not difficult to look up).

    The biggest question mark over these videos though is the simple fact that he didn't even start the car. That makes me suspect what he was actually showing was a mock-up based on a theory rather than something he was able to actually make work. And given they are obviously very old videos, it doesn't seem like it progressed any further in all those years.
     
    WillReadmore likes this.
  17. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    59,467
    Likes Received:
    16,350
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What would be your estimate of the cost of the equipment, car mods, etc.?

    How much less would one pay for hydrogen than on the open market?
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2021
  18. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2017
    Messages:
    27,695
    Likes Received:
    21,094
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I dunno man. The basics, just off the top of my head and some lazy searching-

    4500 psi air compressor $700 (new)
    400 Watt solar system (complete, new) $800
    6000psi full cascade storage system with regulators (new) $3500 (this is most assuredly overkill, but this is probably still the most expensive component, as well as the least wise to 'skimp' on due to safety).
    gas-to-propane conversion kit (for ford V8, new) $550
    misc wiring, fittings, tanks, etc- prolly less than $1000

    So, starting from scratch and buying brand new stuff (assuming the conversion of an existing vehicle) gets you on the road burning your own hydrogen for $6550. I've used the price for gas-to-propane conversion kit because they're way more common than gas-to-H kits, and it would work fine with a bit of tuning.

    Add a generator suitable for powering a small home and another conversion kit- another $1500.

    At this point, the only real cost of the energy is the upkeep of the equipment, and the efficiency only matters if you need more energy than it provides, so it depends entirely on how much you drive and how many 'lights' you want on.

    So, around $8000 startup to go completely 'off-grid' with hydrogen, assuming the labor is DIY. Rough guess- this would prolly result in some minor energy rationing at first, but its not too hard to slowly add more solar capacity, which is the main bottleneck in this setup.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2021
    Creasy Tvedt likes this.
  19. Creasy Tvedt

    Creasy Tvedt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2019
    Messages:
    10,291
    Likes Received:
    13,163
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The hydrogen seems like a way over-complicated and unnecessary "middle man" that introduces lots of complications and energy loss into what could otherwise be a relatively simple system.

    Just buy a standard electric car, and charge it with the electricity generated by your home solar system.

    Easy peasy japaneasy.

    No particle accelerators and/or flux capacitors required.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2021
  20. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Messages:
    31,231
    Likes Received:
    16,926
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    All of that is beside the point.

    the point of the video was that if hydride were legal to purchase, and it were cheap, then hydrogen cars could be a viable idea and he showed
    how he did it. He basically stated that it was not logical that hydride should be illegal. Maybe there is a good reason, but Bob implied there wasn't. I don't know the issues on that point, I"m not an expert.

    Now, I do not know what hydride is, or the issues, I'm just going by the reportage. The only place I can correct rebuttals is regarding the point of the video. If the premise is wrong, I can't rebut it because I'm not an expert. But, all of the rebuttals thus far have missed the point of the video, most didn't watch the video, most made assumptions about what the point of the video was. So, to that extent, I've rebutted most of the responses here.

    Now, if anyone care to watch the video, and rebut on point, I would be interested in those replies, but all of the replies thus far have not been on point. They all have missed the point entirely.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2021
  21. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Messages:
    31,231
    Likes Received:
    16,926
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Did you even watch the videos?
     
  22. Creasy Tvedt

    Creasy Tvedt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2019
    Messages:
    10,291
    Likes Received:
    13,163
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    No. Bob Lazar has no credibility because of his UFO kookery history, so I won't waste my time.

    Very basic science tells us that the claims that Bob was making about his hydrogen car(nearly a decade ago) are impractical at best, and a sham at worst.

    Does he even still have his wacky Rube Goldberg Corvette? The thing was like a 1995 model.

    Screen Shot 2021-04-04 at 3.34.26 PM.png

    Has Bob gotten rich off his cheap Hydride manufacturing process over the last decade, or is he still living with his mom?
     
  23. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    59,467
    Likes Received:
    16,350
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Great post. Thanks for the estimates.

    This whole idea does sound interesting, of course. The idea of being more independent on enegy is a great direction - even ignoring the CO2 factor. It may need some productization.

    I would say that from a dollar comparison standpoint vs. electric cars the electricity from the solar pannels does have value, so from a miles/dollar direction one probably needs to add the cost of electricity - unless the individual is already fully off the grid, perhaps?

    My own view (hope?) is that the electric future has individuals generating most of their own, and perhaps selling back electricity to the grid for others to use.
     
    modernpaladin likes this.
  24. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    Messages:
    14,838
    Likes Received:
    4,814
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You're missing the point that he didn't show how he did it, he only talked about how he did it in very general terms.

    You're on the internet, it isn't difficult to look up some basic information (and even that is enough to raise questions about his claims, such as about there being zero safety considerations). It also seems that even if Lithium Deuteride was once illegal to buy in the US, it doesn't appear to be the case any more, which would suggest that being the sole blocker to the success of this technology was false too.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydride
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_hydride
    https://www.americanelements.com/lithium-deuteride-13587-16-1

    You can't rebut the limitations of those videos by simply referring to the videos. The simple fact is that there isn't enough technical detail described in them, nor any kind of demonstration of a functioning system to support his claims. It doesn't matter what he claimed, they remain claims at this point regardless.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2021
    WillReadmore likes this.
  25. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    59,467
    Likes Received:
    16,350
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I decided to watch the vids as I mentioned earlier - after initially choosing not to.

    How about looking at this from an entirely different direction?

    Our military has long invested in developing this technolog for a variety of uses from land vehicles to drones and even to wearable power. They have a real budget, real needs, and no issues of hydride sales. And, they don't have anything other than small experiments.

    If your guy had some sort of real deal, he could sell it to the military. And, I don't believe the reason that he hasn't done that has to do with the desire to maintain a patent or whatever for personal gain.

    I'd add that Tesla says battery prices will drop by half within the next 3 years. Hydrogen based batteries have a steep hill to climb for reasons that include but are not limited to storage technology. And, auto manufacturers seem to have figured that out.
     

Share This Page