Shocking satellite image shows Alaska’s formerly frozen Yukon Delta is completely green

Discussion in 'Science' started by Durandal, Jul 29, 2021.

  1. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    Stop with the strawman. CO2 is a trace gas and my point is that effing with CO2 levels via unnatural Carbon capture technologies may be dangerous.

    If there is concern, perhaps plant some trees and address the problem via nature and the Carbon cycle. Not some Dr. Strangelove scheme to use unproven technology capture and bury Carbon.

    BTW, the optimum CO2 for plant growth is 1500 ppm. over three times the level now.

    FYI
    A quarter to half of Earth’s vegetated lands has shown significant greening over the last 35 years largely due to rising levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide, according to a new study published in the journal Nature Climate Change on April 25.

    https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2436/co2-is-making-earth-greenerfor-now/
     
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  2. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    The plant growth thing is a total red herring. It assumes that co2 is some sort of overriding concern or solution in agriculture. But, that is not the case.

    The problems in agriculture have to do with change - change in water availability, change in temperatures, change in season timing, change in weather severity, etc. When these things change, crops fail. When this happens in poor countries, people starve - such as in Bangladesh for years now. More co2 just doesn't matter. You can argue that co2 might make some of the US marginally more productive. But, we have the same problems with predictability here, and greater production in the US doesn't help any other country.



    BUT!!! I agree with some of what you say here concerning carbon capture.

    Planting trees is a good idea, though it requires a stupendous number of trees - and space for them. I don't agree that acquiring land and planting trees is cheap, but when possible ... Stopping the elimination of rain forests is obviously a related idea.

    One of the main "carbon capture" ideas is that our fossil fuel burning plants are major point sources of CO2 - locations where there is a serious co2 concentration. So, one can work on removing the co2 there - rather than trying to remove co2 once it has dispersed into the atmosphere. This is being done to some extent. There is serious technical work being done to figure out how to do this with little energy, so it isn't just self defeating.
     
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  3. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Yes, CO2 is a trace gas, however, it's also considered a greenhouse gas...because it warms Earth by absorbing light/heat from the Sun. More trace gas equals more warming.

    You can't only look at CO2 in determining optimal CO2 levels for growth. It is true higher CO2 levels increase growth but they also effect climate change with drought and heat stress, etc. all of which will do damage to growth. More CO2 equals growth but more CO2 also equals climate issues so you can see growth benefits in the short term then horrific problems in the long term.

    There are several companies today doing carbon capture so it's a proven technology. Is this the best answer, or just one of many options, to reduce atmospheric carbon? I'm sure there is no magic bullet so mankind will need to implement all options...
     
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  4. 21Bronco

    21Bronco Banned

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    When do they open up Obama's beach house for snorkelers?
     
  5. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Yeh, you subcontract out your pollution to me. LOL.
     
  6. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    They love evolution….until it affects them. It is a constant source of amusement for me.
     
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  7. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    Changes in climate can effect crops differently. Here in the land of tree farms the climate seems to be changing for the better. I am seriously thinking about growing some roundup ready sweet corn. With the increase in rainfall this warm season continues as a change in climate I could just about anything. This year it was watermelon picked at the peak of ripeness and loaded with sugar. I don't plant seedless melons. I can get a lot of corn from a small plot without expensive machinery.
     
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  8. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    My carbon capture is in my soil. There are no such thing as weeds anymore. Everything that grows in the ground except food stays in the garden. With the exception of tomato plants and Cole crops. I even use weed growth to shade my watermelon to prevent sunburn. I start the plants indoors in overpriced peat pots usually. Before the melons are set out the area is sprayed with roundup. If necessary mow and leave refuse on the ground. Plant melons about 6 ft apart in groups of three or four. When the baby melon plants begin to grow and weeds start to take over it is time to spray. Cover your plants with plastic pots or something and spray around them. Remember, you need to keep the area around the place you planted the seed free of weeds because watermelon don't grow roots from the vines. The weeds can be used as fertilizer when killed.
     
  9. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    When planting melons I usually lay down a mulch of old seasoned hay. 2ft x 2ft for melons and about a foot thick. I plant the start in the old rotting hay and water with miracle grow. If soil temp is over 70 you can use direct seeding.
     
  10. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    These climate “experts” know nothing of plant biology.
     
  11. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    The major concern about food production and a changing climate is that agriculture really needs dependable climate. Farmers need to know when to plant, harvest, etc. They need to know when there will be rain or other water sources, so their planted fields don't dry up or wash away.

    There are significant populations today that are experiencing conditions that are not dependable enough for agriculture to feed the people. Bangladesh is one such place if you'd like to verify with a little research.

    I believe what you say about your melons and trees where you live. And, it sounds like you are paying attention to composting, etc. But, you can't suggest your area is representative of this issue, or that you are taking up the slack for those in Bangladesh (or other countries) who are starving even today.
     
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  12. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    Just saying that this year was positive and if it continues like this year it will be a positive outcome. But we recently had a hundred year drought and if our rain suddenly cuts off we will live in a tinderbox. And I live in the mountains....not great farmland unless it's trees or cattle. And this soil is poor without work.
     
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  13. ChiCowboy

    ChiCowboy Well-Known Member

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    Coming from the guy who said why can't we be on the back end of an ice age.

    Why can't we. That's pure imagination. Ironic no?
     
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  14. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    It was, many times.

    In fact, having permanent ice caps is an aberration in the history of our planet. Go back 30,000 years or so, and that permafrost range was down in the US Midwest region. That was the permafrost range, everything above that was permanently frozen wasteland.

    People just can not stand the idea that the planet is changing, and they can do nothing to stop it.
     
  15. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Well, the fact that humans caused more than natural warming is a sign that we CAN do something about it.

    And, Earth's history just isn't the issue at all.

    The issue is that with current population and the locations where that population is, we are set up for serious problems of starvation and people movement due to impact on agriculture.

    This is why our DoD sees climate change a nationals security issue.
     
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  16. The Last American

    The Last American Newly Registered

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    The climate will change and man will adapt, or he will not.

    So far, he has.
     
  17. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    That is your belief. I have yet to see anything that says it is not natural.
     
  18. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Well, one really needs to look to science for that.

    No individual can tell whether Earth is warming or cooling or staying the same, let alone why.
     
  19. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Really?

    OK, I get it. I am a skeptic in many ways, you are obviously a science disbeliever if you think that is true.
     
  20. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    In ancient history, the problem of climate change was solved by people either moving or starving.

    But, today we do NOT accept the idea of people moving. We are absolutely opposed to that.
     
  21. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Given a choice between science and skepticism...I'll take science...I respect the scientific process...
     
  22. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    1000 years ago there were ~350 million people on Earth...today there are 7+ billion...of which the collective we have sucked many of the resources out of Earth...any idea of mass-migration is unlikely...even if a billion people wanted to migrate, where could they migrate?
     
  23. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Exactly.

    Some of this idiots claim that Canadian agriculture will improve.

    But, Canada has a lot of food right now.

    The issue is whether Canada (and others that could possibly benefit in some way) are willing to host a billion new residents.
     
  24. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Oh, it will. In several thousand years.

    We are talking "Geological Time" here, not the mercurial "time" that most humans look at. Where they want instant results, and be able to see everything change in time to go have dinner and go to bed.

    Will the agriculture improve? Sure it will, in maybe 5-10 thousand years. Gotta wait for the Arctic Ice Cap to finish melting first, and the line of Permafrost to move farther north. Then for the land to dry out (and it will likely be a desert for a bit). Then for soil to build up until it can actually support grasses, like the Great Plains did.

    But a lot of the problems of this planet are that we are overpopulating it. In fact, we are even seeing the response of nature to that. By nature, overpopulation of a species is often resolved by several natural forces. The evolution of a "hither tier predator" was one of the most common in the geological record, but I don't see that happening. That leaves the other two, starvation or disease.

    Just because we have 7 billion people, that does not mean that population is sustainable. No more than an excess of deer in a range is sustainable. Either they expand their range, or they die off to a level that can be sustained. Why people think humans should be different, I have no idea. And the multiple waves of diseases we have been seeing for the last 500+ years is a sign that the population density of humans is growing critical and can not be sustained.

    In reality, the "Great Plains" is still evolving from what it was like during the depth of the last Ice Age. When most of the region north of I-40 was permafrost or arctic bogs. And much of it is still in the "desert" phase, not enough soil built up to support more than scrub plants. Geologically, we are still in an Ice Age, and the planet will still be going through changes (especially in habitat) for another 10,000 years or so.

    And the increased water by that time will have raised humidity levels, increasing rainfall. And the rising CO2 levels will spur on more plant growth, eventually reforming the rivers and deltas that once made North Africa a thriving wet marshland with a thriving ecosystem.
     
  25. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    You should cite something that supports you rather extensive prognostication.

    Beyond that, it's easy to say there are too many humans on the planet.

    But, the thing is that the failure of a country to feed its people usually means that the government will fail.

    And the result of that is serious, as starving people ignore walls, etc.

    Thus our DoD considers the warming Earth to be a national security risk.
     

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