Mass killings by US forces in Afghanistan war

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by LafayetteBis, Sep 11, 2021.

  1. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    9,744
    Likes Received:
    2,086
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    From the Guardian: How mass killings by US forces after 9/11 boosted support for the Taliban

    Excerpt:
    The US has no reason whatsoever to be proud of its military effort in Afghanistan. On the contrary, it was a misguided effort by DoD military-personnel in fighting a war that could not be won.


    From AP News here: Costs of the Afghanistan war, in lives and dollars
    ...
     
  2. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,608
    Likes Received:
    11,196
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I doubt the Taliban will really be any kinder to their enemies than the US was.

    Anyway, isn't this mostly old news? The US set Afghanistan up with their own government. Elections were held. I doubt "hatred of the West" played too much of a role in support for the Taliban overthrowing the government.
    Maybe it might have helped Taliban recruitment earlier on, many years earlier.


    Yes, the war in Afghanistan carried a tremendous cost.

    Too bad the Biden Administration flushed it all down drain. Now it was all for nothing. He allowed the country to fall to the Taliban, and allowed lots of American weapons to fall into Taliban hands. The Taliban is probably more heavily armed now than it was before the US invaded in 2001.
    The Taliban would have never been able to afford things like $15,000 infrared night vision goggles, but now they have so many they don't know what to do with them all.

    I will respectfully have to disagree with you there. It took tremendous ineptitude to allow the Afghan government to fall. Biden not only provoked the Taliban and gave them an excuse to break their deal, but then as they began attacking, Biden decided not to do anything in response, maybe at first thinking he didn't want to do anything more to provoke them, if there was any chance of salvaging the deal, and then later not wanting to get the US involved in any escalating conflict, which would have made him look bad at home politically.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  3. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    63,706
    Likes Received:
    13,464
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What a monstrously inane apology for atrocity ... aside from the fact that had the US not shown up in Afghanistan .. the women would still be dressed in short skirts .. like before we came.. and aside from the fact that the main objective of the US over the last 20 years has been to transform secular Muslim nations into Islamist Jihadist Wunderland

    So a very unintelligent and uninformed comment as well. Have another scoop of propaganda kool-aid dude.
     
    Rampart and Eadora like this.
  4. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,608
    Likes Received:
    11,196
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What are you even talking about?

    Are you talking about the US supporting the Taliban during the Afghan-Soviet war in the 1980s?
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  5. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    9,744
    Likes Received:
    2,086
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Not at all - and it is this central point that matters most. Afghanistan has been run tribe-like for centuries.

    Even the anti-Taliban have no sense of how to run a democracy because the vital-criteria is beyond their conception. This last head of state proved it amply when he scampered in time to save his sorry-arse, which is is proof-positive of the type of mentality that prevails in the country.

    That is, they are - like the Taliban - still in a state of One Man Rule and that rule need not be formulated democratically. This last head of state was just as crooked as those before him.

    And neither can the Taliban run adequately Afghanistan, so it will INDEED come apart again. It is simply a matter of waiting.

    The country should be annexed to Pakistan - have you got that.central point ... ?
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
    Rampart, Hey Now and ChiCowboy like this.
  6. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,608
    Likes Received:
    11,196
    Trophy Points:
    113
    And what's so different about Afghanistan exactly from a country like, say, the United States?

    Why do you believe what is happening in Afghanistan could never happen in America or Europe?

    Remember, you seem to believe it's useless and there's no point doing anything about it, that government can't solve the problems there.
    Is it the people, or does the geography somehow have a special magical quality to it?

    I mean, if you hypothetically took those people in Afghanistan and forced them to trade places with the people in New Zealand, would the people of Afghanistan bring their problems with them, or would those people from New Zealand suddenly find themselves with the same problems Afghanistan has always had?
    Think about this.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  7. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    63,706
    Likes Received:
    13,464
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That would be part of it - including El Saud of course .. Brothers in arms
     
  8. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    9,744
    Likes Received:
    2,086
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Silly question. MRA ...
     
    Rampart likes this.
  9. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,608
    Likes Received:
    11,196
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Is it? I realize that is something you do not want to talk about, because it has obvious implications about your political ideology you believe.

    But I'll let it be for now, since it is not really directly on topic to your post.

    I was just trying to point out an inconsistency in your argument as it applies to other things you politically believe.
    That you think government can solve all problems and that people everywhere around the world are fundamentally all the same, but then you turn around and try to say that doesn't apply to Afghanistan for some reason, because if it did it would make Biden look really bad. And this is to say nothing of many on your side seeing some sort of global government as an ideal. There just seems to be so much inconsistency there.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
    roorooroo likes this.
  10. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    63,706
    Likes Received:
    13,464
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Get serious - Since when have we not failed at nation building over the last 50 years. Afghanistan was a particularly big failure - Biden or no Biden .. shoud have been out of there - well . should have never been in there other than a quick strike on Al Qaeda - Taliban willing to aid in that endeavor ..

    But thats all water under the bridge mate now isn't it - 2 Trillion dollars later - another 6 if you indlude Iraq - tag on 3 more since Obama left - call it "Other ME spending" clearning up the mess for 11 Trillion down the drain. 500 billion over 20 years builds alot of infrastructure - technology - ramping up economy to compete in 3rd millennium.

    Chile - that is the only one I can think of .. luck of the draw really .. and we didn't realy have much to do with that .. we installed a nasty dictator Pinochet .. who the people ousted ... regardless ... thats the one exception to El Salvador - Indonesia -East Timor - quatemala - El Salvador- Nicaragua - Hondura's Afghanistan - Iraq - Syria - Libya Yemen - Kosovo - and so on. Utter disaster.

    You have non understanding of the region or its people - what drives them - no context .. just spoon fed propaganda. You show little understanding of geopolitics - you got some poison lizards that need be pulled.
     
    Rampart likes this.
  11. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2014
    Messages:
    16,104
    Likes Received:
    2,371
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The American military has always been particularly cruel towards the civilian population. For example, you can remember the nuclear bombing of civilians in Hiroshima and Nagosaki. Or crimes in Vietnam, for example, remember the Vietnamese village of Songmi.
    Abu Ghraib, Guntanamo .... in general, the list is endless. You can even remember how the US government, in the US, created concentration camps for US citizens. Only Hitler did that.
    Therefore, war crimes in Afghanistan is the expected result.
     
    Jazz likes this.
  12. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2021
    Messages:
    13,961
    Likes Received:
    6,479
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Your hatred of America is so obvious that I must ask... Are you ISIS? Are you a terrorist?
    The bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima were not acts of cruelty. They were acts required to end the war. In the end, it is estimated that those bombings saved millions of American and Japanese lives which would have resulted if a full scale invasion was required.

    And you comparison of US internment camps in WWII and Hitler's concentration camps is so ridiculous as to bring your sanity into question. American internment of the Japanese is regrettable... it was a bad thing to do. But no one was tortured as in Hitlers Camps. MILLIONS were not murdered as in Hitler's camps.

    One wonders what your motivation is for posting here. It is certainly NOT to engage in reasonable discussion.
     
  13. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    63,706
    Likes Received:
    13,464
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Humor - and a little over the top .. not everyone who hates USA is "ISIS" why would you speak such nonsense

    The rest of your post was on point - as some of the comparisons are ridiculous and hyperbolic... Just the first part was wierd ?
     
    Melb_muser and Hey Now like this.
  14. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2014
    Messages:
    16,104
    Likes Received:
    2,371
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You are writing obvious nonsense.
    1. The bombing of peaceful Japanese cities from the point of view of military necessity is nonsense. The Russians defeated the Kwantung Army and Japan decided to surrender.
    The atomic bombs were not dropped to intimidate the Japanese. This was a message to Comrade Stalin.
    And now American historians are trying to justify this shameful act with mythical advantages.
    2.
    Concentration camps in the US for US citizens is a fact. And to justify such a shame by the fact that there was no torture in the American concentration camp (?) Is ridiculous .
    And if you are talking about torture, why don't you remember Abu Ghraib? Or Guantanamo? In these prisons, people were tortured without trial or investigation. Many innocent people have been imprisoned for years and subjected to systematic torture.
    And by the way, torture is officially allowed in the United States. And moreover, psychologists and doctors are specially involved in the development of torture measures. All this is done at the state level.
    Have you forgotten about Sangmi? Or did want to erase this fact?
     
    Jazz likes this.
  15. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2021
    Messages:
    13,961
    Likes Received:
    6,479
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I simply asked a question.
    You became judgmental and condemning, branding a comment you didn't like as "nonsense", "over the top", "weird", "ridiculous", and "hyperbolic". Republicans simply ask questions and try to gather data. Democrats fly off the handle immediately, judge... condemn... play God.
    I will save this exchange for publication elsewhere as a perfect example of how Republicans can converse in a civil manner and Democrats just want to pass judgement immediately and condemn those who have a differing opinion. Thank you.
     
  16. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    25,617
    Likes Received:
    13,907
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    We did what we had to do after 9/11, but then decided to stay for 20 years, which was a big mistake, almost as big as invading Iraq.

    The US negotiated and made an agreement with the Taliban in 2020 to leave, but what do you mean it was suddenly "for nothing"? It was always for nothing. What was there to gain by staying another 20 years? Its their country, and they believe in the sharia nonsense (and not only the Taliban), so who are we to force our beliefs there. Why do you think the Afghans were quick to join the Taliban? It was because in their hearts they always shared the same beliefs as them. Afghanistan is 99.7% Muslim, and they believe in the fundamentalist kind of Islam.

    Ok. They can use them to kill each other. We are out of that place.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
    Rampart and Sallyally like this.
  17. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2021
    Messages:
    13,961
    Likes Received:
    6,479
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Wow. Either you are very young and haven't gotten much education yet, or you have been indoctrinated beyond belief. Japan was not going to surrender. Your info is simply wrong. The major Russian offensive that collapsed the Japanese before hem was AFTER the bombings... in attempt to get more leverage at the surrender talks and prevent it from becoming a total American affair.
    Japan had REFUSED to surrender time after time. The bomb was seen as the only way to get them to surrender. Hiroshima was selected as a target since Tokyo was evaluated as having no military value anymore. Hiroshima was the home to what was left of the Japanese Navy. Similarly, Nagasaki was the site of command elements moved from more devastated areas. It had nothing to do with Stalin at all. It was about getting the die hard Japanese to surrender. They were ready to fight to the last man... civilian or soldier. Ever heard of Kamikazes? The whole culture was like that. In those days we did not have the ability to strike targets with precision as we do now. We used "carpet bombing" and many civilians died. It wasn't like today where we can target individuals with ease.
    Your comparison of the internment camps we created and the German slaughter camps is insane. We created camps and that was bad. But while our camps were cramped and uncomfortable, they wre not designed TO KILL... as the German camps were. You make Auschwitz, Dachau and Bergen-Belsen sound like nice comfortable places. German camps were MURDERCAMPS... ours were NOT... and for you to insu=inuate that they were is simply insane.
    People were tortured in Guantanamo? Really? They were whipped, crucified, and hung? Really? Gees, where DO you get your info?
    If you have PROOF of torture occurring at a US internment camp in WWII... please provide it. Someone has sold you a pile of BS.
    You must be one of those folks that say waterboarding is torture. I went through that in SERE training and while very uncomfortable, its hardly torture. Or are you one of those snowflakes that pass dead away at the thought combat?
     
    JET3534 likes this.
  18. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    25,617
    Likes Received:
    13,907
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The claim that Japs were never going to surrender is commonly held view in the US, but it is not the only view. Others, including the Japanese, believe they were going to surrender and that the bombs were dropped to keep Soviets at bay. Nagasaki bomb was dropped the same day Soviets invaded Manchuria. Japanese soldiers were famous for never surrendering unless ordered to (which was very uncommon), but they say the political will was there to give the order to surrender (which they did after the nukes). Personally I think either viewpoint can be true.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  19. Reasonablerob

    Reasonablerob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2018
    Messages:
    9,852
    Likes Received:
    3,831
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    ALL the allied forces should be proud of their noble attempt to bring civilization to Afghanistan, if there were civilian casualties that is the nature of war.
     
    JET3534 and roorooroo like this.
  20. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    25,617
    Likes Received:
    13,907
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Where are we taking democracy next? The Congo?
     
  21. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Messages:
    150,175
    Likes Received:
    62,815
    Trophy Points:
    113
    war is ugly on both sides, always is

    especially when the enemy looks different from us and our allies look like our enemies and they mix together

    even the Taliban can't tell who is ISIS among them
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  22. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2021
    Messages:
    13,961
    Likes Received:
    6,479
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You are grossly misinformed. No one in their right mind believes the Japanese would have surrendered without the bomb, at least for a prolonged period and without millions of deaths. Even after they were forced to, the Emperor's Mansion was attacked by a contingent of military personnel seeking to continue the war. Your information comes from a dimension not normally in contact with Earth. I am a West Point graduate ("Courage ad Drive! '75!) and have no time to waste on an obviously left wing brainwashed child that has no clue about true history. This conversation is terminated.
     
    JET3534, roorooroo and joesnagg like this.
  23. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2021
    Messages:
    13,961
    Likes Received:
    6,479
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Sure they can After having them over for dinner and socializing with them, ISIS and Taliban become fast friends.
     
  24. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    25,617
    Likes Received:
    13,907
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Feel free to disagree, but there are lot of people who share that view.

    You can go pound sand little man, and shove the personal insults where the sun don't shine.

    Obviously its not me who is brainwashed. You have decided your view must be right because that is what you have been told (aka brainwashed) while I said both views can be true. I look at all viewpoints, but your mind is closed to anything other than what you have been told to believe.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
    Rampart likes this.
  25. Heartburn

    Heartburn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2015
    Messages:
    13,499
    Likes Received:
    4,973
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It is amazing how soon a country that will never forget, forgets.
     
    Arleigh, Condor060 and AARguy like this.

Share This Page