Buttigieg Says Americans Should Buy Electric Cars So They ‘Never Have To Worry About Gas Prices Agai

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Steve N, Nov 29, 2021.

  1. jack4freedom

    jack4freedom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am with you. I will wait until they are better and cheaper. I remember a bunch of idiots spending $15,000 - $20,000 on plasma TVs. They were heavy and crappy. Now you can buy a way bigger and better one for $500.
     
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  2. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    Forget targeting them if they're made out of steel or aluminum or basically any alloy that would make it cost less than about 15 million dollars. It's a time bomb.

    There is a phenomenon known with steel called hydrogen cracking. This wouldn't be a problem if the metal didn't Thermo cycle. But as it is decompressed to move It from one container to another it becomes very very cold. To the point ice forms on the outside so we're talking about some intense thermocycling. And does the steel wood warm back up atoms of hydrogen will have gotten into crevices of it and they expand and crack the metal. So we would need a non-reactive metal. The cheapest way to do that is to clad the tank. That process alone not considering the manufacturing of everything else would be in the millions.
     
  3. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    I doubt Teslas will go down in price they're market is a luxury car. You can find the electric cars that are pretty close to the price of a traditional car probably not right now but for the pandemic and likely after it.

    The problem I have with it is it's not going to be something that anybody can repair. So when I go to check a particular complicated problem on a car I'll plug the scanner into the OBD2 port in the car has on board diagnostics that will talk to my scanner that's actually required by the laws regulating emissions. Electric cars don't have any of that so if there's a problem with it you don't know. I already know that Tesla's are much like Apple products nobody can fix it except for Tesla and they want you to buy a new one so they're going to charge you an abusive rate so that you just buy a new one. This is happening with agricultural equipment and I think the major reason is to eliminate the used car market and I think that's the only reason that anybody is making electric cars.

    It's the only reason car manufacturers are excited about it you're going to have customers that have disposable cars that will have to buy new ones rather than getting the old ones fixed.

    It most certainly is not environmentally friendly because all of that old plastic and paint and parts that are non-reusable and non-recyclable will go to the landfill.

    Think about you waste and no more junk yards it's just cars are piled on top of it.

    I think it's a bad idea all the way around it is not green the greenest car you can buy as a used car because one nobody has to produce anything you're buying something that already exists and two you're preserving something from having to go to the landfill.

    Unless it gets like 4 miles to the gallon that's probably better to try to used car for the environment.

    So really all the electric car is, is a status symbol too therefore people with status therefore they will not come down if they do it will be the end of them as a competitor for gasoline powered cars unless we're talking about making them $5,000 brand new which that's what they should cost because that's all the engineering that goes into them.
     
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  4. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    People still use horses to large degree how they've always been used. There are people that keep them as a hobby or a pet. But breeding race horses is a bigger business now than it ever has been.
     
  5. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    Writer Thomas Sowell once pointed out that the first television he ever saw was in the home of a wealthy family where his mother worked as a maid.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell

    It had a 6 inch diameter black and white screen. But he pointed out that because wealthy people were willing to shell out a fortune (for that area) for these tiny, primitive TVs he and countless others today could now purchase 72 inch HD, color TVs without difficulty.
     
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  6. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    not as practical as a fuel powered vehicle. Electric vehicles actually fell out of favor around the turn of the 20th century because of this.

    The limits electric vehicles have are what they've always had and it's that they have to be charged up by an outside power source that takes time or it does damage to the battery. When they run out of charge you can't just add a little more charge there to get you to a charging station it must be towed. The efficiency is extremely terrible even today compared to fuel powered vehicles.

    And the biggest drawback is they are really just one time use vehicles they aren't going to have much of a resale because nobody wants to pay as much for a car that they know they'll only get one or two years out of when they can pay a lot less for a car that they might get 30 years out of.
    I absolutely 100% disagree with the government that doesn't know anything about technology mandating technology must halt.

    Think about the charging cable for your phone I've had a cellular phone for about 21 years and the charging plug for it has changed about 14 times. There's a reason for that. The need for a new plug existed that's why they changed it they wouldn't have gone through the process to reinvent the wheel if it wasn't necessary they don't do it just to screw you unless it's Apple.
    so you're up through dictate has put a cap on innovation the technology will only be as good as the plug will allow. So if better charging solutions come up that require a different plug maybe a higher capacity plug or multiple plugs they will require government intervention to apply those innovations.

    That is profoundly stupid of Europe to do that. Imagine if they did that with cell phones all those people in Europe would still be using a flip phone. Because that's the only thing you can charge with the one standard power port.

    Government doesn't have any idea in the slightest about this so they have zero business mandating anything. They are the barrier to progress in Europe.
    More power to you at this stage of development I will never own one just like I will never own an Apple product because I like something that I can repair or I can find someone who can repair it I don't want a disposable E-Waste vehicle but if you have the money and this is a novelty that trips your trigger than go for it I don't grudge you for that.
     
  7. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    I'm thinking about if everyone went electric first and foremost there would be no transportation at all during power outages which happened regularly even today if nobody makes a traditional vehicle there are no ambulances there are no fire trucks so if something's burning during a power outage it just has to burn if people are in need of emergency services or transport to a hospital they just die. People who need police assistance during a power outage will not be able to have it. Basically we're reduced to the 18th century during a power outage.

    Unless you have generators and at that point why not just keep the superior vehicles that don't need that.

    If we have to commission someone to make a Superior ambulance or fire truck that can operate on a combustible fuel why don't we just make all of our cars that way so buying an ambulance or a fire truck isn't the primary expense of every town and City. The fact that these vehicles are mass produced and it's just a customized body that goes on a standard chassis is what makes them cheap and I mean cheap as in quarter of a million dollars to 5 million dollars. Versus 20 to 30 because they have to be designed they have to be manufactured and the company that manufactures them will only manufacture them so they get to set the price at whatever.

    I take no issue with people driving electrical cars in fact I think it's great the option existing is something that should exist in the free market but it should be an option.
     
  8. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    unless overnight becomes peak time and if most people are charging the machine that uses the most energy out of any other thing that they own then that will become peak time. And then the wattage that you use will have to be taxed to pay for roads so expect a very sizeable increase in your electric bill. Or your registration won't have to cost $10,000 or a driver's license won't have to cost thousands of dollars somewhere along the line the government's going to get their money. Maybe they had a $14,000 tax on the tires.

    They're only valuable right now because almost nobody owns one once a significant portion of electric vehicles are electric it will suck to own one.
    There are hurdles you won't be able to overcome. For example the taxes you pay to the government for gasoline that goes to fund road building and electric cars being that they're more fragile need Superior roads. The only reason they're cost-effective is because all of the people buying gasoline. If that dwindles expect the cost of ownership to go up.
     
  9. The Mello Guy

    The Mello Guy Well-Known Member

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    And gas powered cars will be the same. My 1958 Buick limited convertible isn’t getting converted to electric.
     
  10. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    • this is feel good nonsense that is often outside of the lifespan of the people who make the promise so they have no intention on keeping it
    on this Sunday stores is that in politicians aren't very familiar with economics. Leading markets are only leading because that's what the consumer wants if you take away what they want they aren't going to consume anything that you make what they're doing is requesting automakers to commit suicide.
    They'll move right back if doing this bankrupts their company or more likely as they die because they're making something nobody wants other car makers will take their place.

    I imagine if these people are stupid enough to do this in the next 20 years the used car market and the repair market will explode. Used cars will probably sell them for more and be more valuable than anything on a new car lot.

    We moved away from electric vehicles in the first place back around the turn of the 20th century because they were substandard.
     
  11. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    Gas powered vehicles would be used in the same capacity that they're used now yeah I agree. That's why electric cars aren't the future they are the past.

    You're 58 Buick is more technologically advanced than a 2021 Tesla.
     
  12. The Mello Guy

    The Mello Guy Well-Known Member

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    I know zero people who commute via horse
     
  13. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    Generally speaking people didn't commute by horse at any point in history. The commute as a concept only entered human life after mechanized travel existed.

    Horses were largely used on farms and in ranching and they're still used that way today I don't care if you know any body that works in ranching or farming that means nothing.

    I no zero people who commute by train that's more of an artifact of where I live versus the use of trains because New York has trains and people commute on them.
     
  14. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    current batteries, yes, agree
     
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  15. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    Well I don't buy the clean electric vehicle regardless of how they come up with materials which is through petrochemical. The biggest problem I see with it is they are now e-waste. There won't be junk yards because think about all the cell phone or computer salvage yards you see. They'll just be chopped out put on barges and sent over to the Philippines to be burnt and people will tell themselves they are recycling.
     
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  16. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    Current batteries are all we have. The future of batteries will be the same. You don't create a galvanic cell without a galvanic cell.

    Whether it's solid state or lead acid or lithium ion there has to be a cathode and anode and electrolyte.

    Those substances will break down over time and they have to be acquired and refined somehow or another it doesn't matter what they are.
     
  17. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    Well I'm sure Minnesota is going to adopt electric cars until the first winter puts them all out of commission. You do understand the galvanic effect that occurs in all batteries has to happen at a certain temperature to be the most efficient right?
     
  18. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    currently we have many options on the horizon, technology will improve

    I am not buying an electric car yet, but i will someday I am sure
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2021
  19. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    And how much for gasoline?
    How about propane?

    We ship hydrogen in huge quantities every day in this country.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2021
  20. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    meaning you're hopeful for what may be and I respect that. However a battery or generating electricity within a cell will always require a galvanic cell
    I don't know is the technology for conventional vehicles advances and it certainly is there might not be a benefit to ever buying an electric car it's hard to tell at this point we can only speculate. And if I was pressed to speculate I would say that the limitations for electric cars would ever so slightly with every iteration and by the time it's a functional product that most people would want there might be something Superior in use. Personally I think electric cars are a step backward the conventional car that was beginning to be manufactured in the early 20th century was it technological advantage.

    And there are advancements still occurring there.
     
  21. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Q. What are the durability and safety standards of hydrogen storage tanks?
    [​IMG]
    Hydrogen storage tanks

    Hydrogen storage tanks are subject to some of the highest safety requirements and to a thorough certification process. Tanks have to withstand very high pressure, equivalent to being 15km under water and to last for 123 years assuming it is charged once a day. Regulatory requirements for durability over 15 and 20 years is withstanding 4,000 and 5,000 charges in South Korea and EU, respectively. Hydrogen tanks for NEXO were subjected to a wide range of tests including a drop test and extreme temperature tests, whilst charging 45,000 times. Additional tests subjected the tanks to 15,000 more charging to ensure safety and durability beyond the regulatory requirements.

    Q. Hydrogen tanks are designed to store hydrogen at extremely high pressures. Does it not pose a safety risk?
    [​IMG]
    Hyundai's hydrogen-fuel-cell-powered Nexo SUV

    A Fuel Cell stack requires a minimum pressure and furthermore the pressure for the hydrogen supply needs to increase when higher electricity output is required. It is very difficult to reduce the pressure level down to a desirable level, which is why NEXO’s hydrogen supply system has a two-stage depressurization design. The first stage depressurization unit reduces the pressure from 700 bar to 16 bar. The hydrogen pressure level is further reduced to 1.0 to 1.5 bar right before the hydrogen is supplied into the Fuel Cell stack. Many people have serious concerns about hydrogen fuel tank safety even after they have been made aware of all the evidence of their safety. The safety of FCEVs and hydrogen tanks are excellent as of today. However, Hyundai Motor and Kia Motors are continuing to work on smart hydrogen tanks with realtime status monitoring systems. We are also making R&D efforts to reduce costs and improve storage efficiency, so that FCEVs can be more accessible to customers.
    https://news.hyundaimotorgroup.com/Article/Hydrogen-Tank-Safety-Proven
     
  22. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    one of the things that might make me hold off on a new car is too much technology in it, that breaks, and cost a ton to fix (gas and electric)

    I personally have only ever bought used cars and drive them 10+ years, so not sure if I will even go electric or not - as I am getting up there in age
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2021
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  23. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    So I'm a materials specialist and I specialize in specting pressure vessels heat exchangers and various other containment as well as pipes and fixtures.

    So what this article tells me is Hyundai needs to quit wasting your time making cars and patent whatever magical material they made these tanks out of because they could make amend with this super duper incredible material.

    Needless to say I don't believe their claims unless they're talking about such incredible low pressures that it's only between one and two percent greater than atmospheric in which case you will spend more time recharging that fuel tank than you will driving the vehicle.

    In order to have a container this amazing there must be some sacrifices somewhere.

    I've seen tanks and vessels that were hundreds of millions of dollars that don't have these properties.

    Basically I think the articles total bullshit.

    Don't believe everything you read and certainly don't believe hype men.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2021
  24. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    And it moves forward, will Biden subsidize these like he wants to do with all electric?

    690-HP Hyundai Sports Car Previews Brand's Future Fuel Cell Strategy
    The company's Hydrogen Vision 2040 plan has been unveiled.


    Hyundai has announced its ambitious plan to popularize hydrogen as a powerful and sustainable energy source for the automotive industry in the next two decades. The South Korean company estimates that by 2030 it will achieve a price point for production fuel cell vehicles that is comparable to battery-powered vehicles. During the Hydrogen Wave online event, Hyundai has also unveiled the Vision FK concept car.


    It takes the form of a two-door sports car and the automaker explains it is powered by a 690-horsepower (500-kilowatt) hydrogen powertrain. In fact, it’s a more complicated system that combines a fuel cell energy converter with a rear-wheel-drive RWD, plug-in system, capable of over 373 miles (600 kilometers) per single tank of hydrogen. When the full potential of the machine is unleashed, it can reach 62 miles per hour (100 kilometers per hour) in less than four seconds....

    ...
    As part of its fuel cell strategy, Hyundai wants to have available hydrogen or battery-powered powertrains for all commercial models by 2028. The automaker will develop a brand new fuel cell commercial vehicle for global release, of which it expects to produce and sell up to several hundred thousand units per year.

    In order to achieve its ambitious plan, the company will unveil a new generation fuel cell system in 100-kW and 200-kW variations in 2023. It will be up to 50 percent cheaper than Hyundai’s current FCEV tech, 30 percent more compact, and twice more powerful.
    https://www.motor1.com/news/531392/hyundai-vision-fk-fuel-cell/

    I'll take one of those over an electric any day. Hope they have a manual 6 speed!!!!

    The current ride

    upload_2021-12-1_21-0-27.png
     
  25. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    The article gives you the two stage and injection pressure. They are in production and selling vehicles in California as I type.
     

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