Nazi Germany had a socialist economy

Well after the civil war KMT established on Taiwan capitalist economy. I would agree some groups in KMT were more inclined toward socialism, for example we can see this in the policy of KMT against both marxists and capitalists in Shanghai. But i think it is probably more complicated and likely they were mostly against feudalism and serfdom. In Taiwan after civil war they organized land reform to bring capitalism in the village. Serfdom is anti-capitalism since serfs are not free to choose their job or start private business. Professor Hayek compared as we saw socialism to serfdom in fact. However democracy started only after generalissimo Chiang already death in Taiwan.

More about KMT policy in Taiwan after civil war:



This article explains why old leftist views of KMT are also wrong.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/653087

 

Capitalism and Pre-Marxist Socialism are not exclusive.

Like so many, you are confusing Socialism and Marxism.

 

True Socialists hate big corporations and see them as the enemy. The Nazis helped many corporations get very rich, using slave labor.

Socialist my ass.

 

You also are confusing Socialism with Marxism. They are not the same thing.

 

@Mushroom i also wrote that i am still gathering informations about KMT which is an interesting case indeed. When in Shanghai they excluded local capitalists from their government, put high taxes on them and quickly imprisoned them also if they did not give large amounts of money to KMT this is a form of socialism. However also during war economy is by nature inclined toward stronger state intervetions.

Now the question why would you consider Taiwan economy as being under state control ( like ) for the benefit of society which is the definition of socialism? Not regulated but under state control for this supposed purpose.

 

Ronstar this is a leftist prejudice yet i believe you are not aware of it. Also Robespierre put economy under state control and claimed it is causing benefits for the society. Merchants were for example higly prosecuted and were forbidden to sell goods with profit. This was a form of pre-marxist socialism. Yet some capitalists the owners of military industry were able to make big profits under his government.

 

Why would I consider a nations with strong state control over the economy and businesses Socialist?

Well, maybe a big reason is because of the founder? You know, Sun Yet-Sen? Who also commonly communicated with the Second International in Paris? Who asked them to send representatives to China to help him establish a Socialist Republic? Who's key proposal for the KMT was as follows:

The man was a devout Socialist, but also did not care much for Marxism. And it was that split between the Socialist and Marxists that caused the CCP to break away then go to war with the KMT.

 

Ok but Sun Yat Sen died already in 1925 in the time when KMT and CPC were still allies fighting together against remains of feudalism and so called warlords which were connected in many cases with European colonial powers or Japan. Also in Comintern Stalin's policy did not yet prevail. Later KMT considered Soviet policy as colonialism too.

In Taiwan economy was built first with the help of land reform. Then landowners were encouraged to invest in growing industry which was supported also by pretty big USA help. So landowners were becoming capitalists and shareholders.

 

If this video I show here covers old ground on this thread, my apologies. I'm just not motivated to go through all the arguments made in this thread. IF on the other hand this video can provide some new insight, feel free to make counter-arguments or (hope springs eternal) change your mind.

 

The problem is that the video does what most others fail in. They try to almost immediately claim that Socialism is the same as Communism.

When they make such a huge failure, nothing else can be taken seriously.

 

On the other hand socialists many times do this mistake or use this propaganda that they call other socialists capitalists. National socialists were called capitalists because they for example ''destroyed labour unions'', but in fact they just did the same thing as Lenin and Stalin did, that is to eliminate private initiative between workers and made one big Nazi controlled union called German Labour Front ( Deutsche Arbeitsfront ). And also sometimes socialists say communists were ''state capitalists'' since they really cared for strong state and communists were and are calling socialists capitalists because they are like making compromises with capitalism.

We should not give to much credit for such political and even sectarian labels, but should rather look close at real dealings with economy under National socialists.
They did not want to industrialize Lebensraum in the east for example as it would be normal for capitalists but rather they wanted to keep it as farmland. So that Aryan community in Germany would have enough food and would avoid the collapse of capitalist western economy when ''capitalist markets will shrink''.

Socialism is by definition state control over economy ( like ) for the benefit of the society. National socialists were following that goal. Since they were racial socialists they were making their race stronger and specially the more poor Aryans benefited since taxes and state regulations burdened richer Aryan people the most. Some like Jews were also excluded from this form of socialism, but not based on their class as it is in the case of marxism, but based on their race, since their were considered unfit by nature to work for the benefit of Aryan socialist society.

National socialists were using also some kind of welfare state economy to a degree of course since they allowed some profit making based on private initiative, however it was higly taxed and regulated. They thought also that full racial socialism can only be achived after Lebensraum is conquered, before this they have not enough resources to fully implement socialism and had to use some degree of capitalism also so that they would be able to trade with success for their race in mostly capitalist world.

 

Communists did the exact same thing wherever they came to power. Destroying all unions other than a small number that they themselves controlled.

Hell, look no farther than "Solidarity" in Poland to see that. That was a union that was predominantly created by fervent Marxist Communists, who simply wanted more say in their lives.

 

Social democrats in Weimar Germany can be seen as proponents of welfare state at least in their political practice. So what was Hitler thinking about them? As Hans-Hermann Hoppe , Australian economist and philosopher analyzed he liked their struggle for social justice and their opposition to monarchy. They basically made Germany a republic after WW1. But he did not like their internationalism, pacifism, their acceptance of democracy plus he considered their party to be poisioned by the Jews. Because of such things he saw them as not capable for real social ( and national ) revolution. So also from this we can see that National socialists considered themselves more not less socialistic than social democrats. Social democrats were persecuted because they were pro-democracy and because they were not enough revolutionary not because they were against capitalism!

 

And what did Hitler think about communists? He liked that they were fanatics, that they do not like to compromise, but like totalitarian state where a few can control milions as it is in USSR. He admired their propaganda efforts between workers and the poor and how they can mobilize them. Hitler also agreed with them that capitalism is about to fall soon. However he did not like their internationalism and thought their vision of economy is doing harm to national Aryan body by denying evolutionary laws that some people are more capable and can do more good for the national and social economy as others can. But this national and socialist economy should be an autarky othervise it will not survive the fall of capitalism in Hitler's mind. Plus of course they were poisoned by the Jews.

Before the end of his life Hitler thought communists will win in future war against the ''weaker'' west. Yet his prophecy was wrong since the west won cold war struggle.

So communists were persecuted under National socialism mainly because of their internationalism which was considered pro-jewish. They were trying in his mind to exploit the fall of capitalism for the destruction of Aryan race by polluting it with other lower races and putting the evil Jews as the new leaders and not because they were against capitalism or democracy because Hitler hated both as well!

 

And finally what did Hitler think about fascism? Italy and Mussolini were considered his allies, but he thought that there are three main problems. Monarchy, influence of catholic church and old army elite loyal to king. Many fascists became corrupted capitalists in his mind. Italian society was not egalitarian enough for him. That's why when Germans occupied parts of Italy and established the Salo social republic Mussolini declared fascists are returning back to their socialist roots as it was shown also before in this topic. They became much more antisemitic too, since until 1943 many Italian Jews were party members. Hitler saw his coalition with Italy as problematical also because they had colonies in muslim countries and were blocking a ''natural alliance'' with islamic world which would be anti-British and anti-jewish as he and Grand mufti of Jerusalem were planning.

 

Hitler actually was a monarchist, but he wanted to see the Kaiser return and largely be symbolic, not unlike Victor Emmanuel III of Italy. Without any actual power, simply a figure head to help rally people around. However, Kaiser Wilhelm despised Hitler, and refused any attempts during his reign to return to Germany.

One must always remember that to see what Hitler wanted, one only needs to see what Mussolini was doing. Mussolini was the founder of "National Socialism" in Europe, and Hitler tried to copy him in everything he did.

And even though he was a Socialist, Hitler hated the Social Democrats as they in his mind were the ones responsible for the defeat in WWI. A defeat that was not military, but entirely political as the Kaiser's government collapsed.