Where is the left?

Your indifference to this...

More than me, it's going to the people at the top who write themselves stock options and other ways of enriching themselves.

I rang up the union and encouraged them come out to speak to the workers. We signed an agreement that profit shared with us getting 100% up to one profit level, splitting the profit 100% to 200%, and then the workers getting all the profit above that level. We always made it to the 200% level and far beyond.

Now, you're making stuff up.

Anything but discussing the solution to make sure workeer share in the wealth they help create. You have no beef with workers getting screwed?

Part-time workers and those on the south side of the median for full-time workers.

These are technological improvements. Workers aren't fully sharing in those, either.

Take an economics class online so you have some idea what you're talking about.

 

It’s by design, this place was much different several years ago — personally I think removal of the truth rule led to the decline in honest debate in good faith to be replaced with — well, I am sure you can see.

I understand why they removed the rule as it was probably difficult to enforce and required massive moderator time (I would hate to have to argue with some people what is “fact” — we can’t even agree that the earth isn’t flat or that proper use of masks lowers transmission of viruses or that theft of classified documents is a crime) but it vastly impacted the quality of the discussions here.

 

The first amendment is so wonderful… isn’t it!!! It’s the first of all the other wonderful amendments!!!

So Agree that…Only hearing one-sided political points of view on a debate forum would definitely result in a very boring debate forum.

My comfort zone is enjoying differing points of view being debated with great vigor ending with a friendly handshake.

Demanding change is not debating. It’s called brow-beating.

 

Friendly ?

 

I’m not indifferent. I’ve repeatedly pointed out you are the cause of their plight. I take direct actions to remedy the problem, you are causing the problem you perceive.

I guess as long as you can identify a worse offender you can justify your actions. Interesting.

So how many workers retired with you? Or did they have to keep working after you cashed out?

Never. You said this, remember?

You are screwing them, not me. I’ve shown you the solution in the past. The best solution is worker ownership and/or control of the business. You want someone else to “fix” it in a way that still allows you to take without having to produce.

No your graphs include all labor.

You are so close to an epiphany! But I doubt it will ever happen. Yes, workers are who I’m referring to. The portion size at Burger King is the same whether you are hourly wage labor, salaried management, or owner of a business.

Technological advancements account for increased consumption but not increased production? You just let the cat out of the bag!

When you are unable to address my posts and respond with fallacy as opposed to facts or intellectual argument it’s not a good look.

 

More disinformation. Miami is not the most expensive place to rent. Not even in the top 5.

https://www.rent.com/research/highest-rent-in-the-us/

If I don’t consider housing costs a part of cost of living why did I include these statements in my posts TO YOU?

SMH.

 

Its the most expensive when in come is considered, as it must be. Rent-income ratio = 49.9%.

You said housing expenses are miniscule compared to gassing up your car, so clearly its not much of a consideration to you. Gas must be REALLY expensive where you live.

 

I’m happy to examine your source for income rent ratio. Nobody would ever take your word for it at this point. You’ve provided too much misinformation.

I provided an example of situations where those in public housing in CA would spend several times the amount on gas as on rent. I gave you numbers and showed the math.

I’m sorry your house is a money pit, but your housing problems do not negate the facts I’ve presented.

I do not live in California. Gas is below national average at all times here. Plus I store 4-6 months of usage so save a lot by buying when prices are relatively low and avoiding the highs almost completely. I’m not concerned for myself or for you. I’m concerned for the poor schmuck in CA that has to choose between healthy food and gas to get to work.

 

You are free to look it up. Why should anyone bother spoon-feeing you info knowing you'll call it "misinformation" if it disagrees with your bias. I just realized that you probably live in your mothers basement. Am I right? Anyone who spends more to gas up a car than they do on housing probably lives with their parents.

Ah, what the heck. . See the facts......I mean "misinformation" attached.

Least Affordable Large Cities for Renters
Some of the nation’s largest cities were among the least affordable for renters. These included Miami, Los Angeles, New York, and Boston in the top 10. Numerous cities in California were among the most unaffordable, with 6 of the top 10 least affordable being in California. Among large cities, the average rent-to-income ratio was 27.1%.
https://advisorsmith.com/data/least-and-most-affordable-cities-for-renters/

 

It's not about me. You have so far refused to acknowledge this is a problem.

Still trying to make it about me?

You haven't explained how your system would work. (Hint: it won't work.)

How are workers in a chip factory going to get the money to build it?

 

I said I was happy to examine your source. As opposed as I am to misinformation I’m very open to verifiable correct information. Even though your data is from 2020 when Miami real estate was much hotter than today I am happy to accept your source. 2021 data was just released in September so I doubt there are better numbers yet.

I don’t have a bias. I just like facts. Unfortunately you are ambivalent about facts. You started off with this false claim that Miami was the least affordable city (cost of living) based on it’s home prices.

When I pointed out your error with a source, you claimed our sources were the same even though they had different subject matter, different authors, different publication dates, different data sets, and different conclusions. Of course all of your claims were false but you held fast to your biases even when proven wrong.

Then you said this:

Miami is NOT the least affordable city. Manhattan is as I posted the data and math for evidence.

And you continued to claim 87.39% of income in Miami is going to housing which is patently false. The price of a house being 87.39% of median income in no way indicates ANYONE is paying 87.39% of their income for housing. (Now you are claiming it’s closer 49% but still won’t admit the 87.39% figure is incorrect).

I pointed out no lender or landlord would ever write a mortgage or lease to anyone who’s financials indicated they would be spending 87% of their income on housing. The notion is bizarre. Every claim of yours is patently false yet you double down posting this:

Californians DO NOT spend 85% of income on housing. Nobody will rent or sell based on such financials in California either. Not anywhere. And the only “evidence” you show is median house price compared to median household price. Those data points in NO WAY indicate anyone is paying 85% of their income for housing. All it says is those making less than median income must purchase a home under median value. Lenders would DEMAND that.

Then you moved on to fallacy of claiming I didn’t believe housing was a part of cost of living when previously in two posts TO YOU I stated clearly it was.

There is one person here who is biased and it’s not me. I accept facts. You reject facts and double down on your false beliefs. Still, any cost of anything in MIAMI has nothing to do with the FACT poverty is highest in the nation in CALIFORNIA which was the original debate. You falsely claimed red states were higher poverty. This shows your bias because I have not referred to the politics of California or Florida. I’ve just stated facts correcting your plethora of errors.

You have apparently provided ONE piece of verifiably correct information after providing a half dozen or so patently false pieces of information. Things are looking up for you. If you had read your previous sources and thoughtfully considered their actual content I’m confident you would have been able to provide less disinformation overall.

Oh, on the mother’s basement ad hominem fallacy. Unfortunately my mom died of dementia right before Covid hit the planet. The last two places she lived before she died did not have basements. And I haven’t lived with my parents since I was 17 years old.

I’m probably the most transparent PF member concerning my real identity. I’m very comfortable in my own skin. You can go here to see one place people can learn about who I really am. There is even a picture of part of my house and pictures of a few of my vehicles there.

http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/where-that-food-comes-from….593471/

As far as the gas vs housing here is my claim.

I backed it up with official statistics from California showing someone at the very edge of public housing eligibility (not even a very impoverished household) would pay far more for gas than housing. Yet your bias rejects the facts and leads you to post more ad hominem fallacy.

Back of the napkin math would show I spend around $5000 on housing annually and approximately $40,000 on gas/diesel annually. But just like your personal example it doesn’t change the realities of Californians and their highest poverty rate in the nation.

 

It would not be better since rents went up by heaps in 2021.

It is least affordable based on home prices. Its a fact you don't like due to your bias, so you call it "misinformation".

The source (cnbs) was same as yours since you also quoted cnbc. My numbers were 100% correct, but you can't accept them because of your bias

I haven't rejected anything. I simply provided some facts about Miami

Isn't it amazing they have reduced poverty by 33% in a short time?

 

I have repeatedly acknowledged the problem. And a big part of the problem is folks like you who brag about taking wages away from workers

No. You made it about you when you openly admitted to receiving massive amounts of profits that are the product of someone else’s labor.

LOL. It is working all around you.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnca...et-to-reshape-the-us-economy/?sh=507f0f1556bf

https://socapglobal.com/2016/09/10-inspiring-employee-owned-businesses-you-should-know/

One of many employee owned/controlled businesses.

We’ve been through this all before.

https://esopassociation.org/research/americans-want-to-work-for-employee-owned-companies

Those paying attention have known about this for a long time. From 1987.

https://hbr.org/1987/09/how-well-is-employee-ownership-working

I could go on and on but you aren’t interested in facts anyway.

You claimed to have been a worker who started a business. The many potential answers to that question should be obvious to you.

 

Since you avoided andwering the question I asked with your nonsense replay, I know all I need to know. Have a blessed life.

 

Dude, you basically said you're willing to die for your beliefs. If that's not ideology, I don't know what is.

 

No, you very clearly said that few people are willing to put their life behind their beliefs as you do. You made it abundently clear that you're far more serious than the vast majority. If this is actually true, and you're not just like everyone else in choosing not to kill kittens, your life MUST look very different to everyone else's.

So which is it? You're just like everyone else (doesn't kill kittens, but otherwise your morality is a matter of convenience), or you're special and different?

 

It is not the least affordable city as you claimed. Moving the goalposts now doesn’t change the fact you presented incorrect information.

What I have I posted that is biased?

The sources were not the same. I posted TWO sources One published by the publisher of your source and the other not published by the publisher of your source. Being published by the same publisher does not make them the same source. Your source was addressing median house prices and median wages. Mine addressed COST OF LIVING which was the subject.

No. You made a bunch of false claims about Miami. Demonstrably false claims.

I would have to know what time period you are referring to. To know whether we should be impressed or not we must determine the cause of the reduction and what it cost in other areas.

 

No sex before marriage, abortion is a sin, homosexuality is a sin, etc etc. If you genuinely aren't aware that morals/ethics etc differ according to culture and place, then I'm sorry for you that your life has been so insulated.

Now, could you give some examples of your defending yours with your lived life?

 

While I dont really know the full context of what you are discussing, I find the income caveat to be misleading, especially considering that you are talking about Miami. It is essentially the beach.

If you were talking about Manhattan, ok, if you work in Manhattan, unless you live there, you probably have at least an hour commute to get there and likely far longer if you are seeking actual affordable housing. You could assume something similar in San Francisco, Los Angeles etc. In those places, you have a long way to go before you find affordable housing. In Miami, one can drive 10 or 20 minutes inland and find far less expensive housing. In that sense, it really is not the same thing.

The Miami area is plenty affordable as long as you are willing to drive a short distance inland.

 

Nothing moved. You mentioned rent, and I educated you on the fact that Miami is the least affordable in the aspect too. The info is correct. If you want to refute, take it up with cnbc. Its funny you used the same source and then all it "misinformation".

I provided links to back them up. If you don't like them, then so be it, but what the point of parroting the same thing over and over

Why don't you read the thread and learn. Someone posted 10 yr old data to prove how bad poverty was in CA, and I used the same exact source / methodology for last year, and there was 33% improvement. I guess it means they are doing something right.

 

What do you mean?

10 to 20 mins in this (below)? No, traffic is an absolute nightmare in Miami (5th worst in US). Average commute is 32 mins (its 33 in NYC), but if you want to live in an less expensive area, then it will take much longer. But there really is no cheap areas. Ft Lauderdale median price for a home is $600 000. The Miami-Dade county average is about the same ($565K)

 

According to the US Census.gov, the Median value of owner occupied housing units in Miami Dade is $310,700, and the Median Gross rent is $1373
U.S. Census Bureau QuickFacts: Miami-Dade County, Florida

This seems like a far different picture than you are painting, and that is at least in part because it takes into account the entire county rather than just the pretty small area that comprises official Miami. Additionally, it is misleading to point to Fort Lauderdale as an alternative when everyone knows if you want affordable housing when discussing property in the vicinity of the ocean, go further inland.

You are also neglecting to consider that much of the opulent wealth in Miami ( which undoubtedly drives up median home values) are in fact retirees who would be showing very little in the way of income.

 

To be clear, the figure I gave you is the median listing price in Miami-Date.

Not sure what the Census value represents, but its probably from county appraisers database, which has their estimated "Just Market Value" which would make the value look much lower than what the houses are going for. My house in that database shows way lower than what I could sell it for. The nice thing is that the property taxes, which are very high here are based on that number.

Going "inland" in Broward county is not cheap if you want to live in a nice/safe neighborhood with good schools. Inland is where people raise their kids and demand is high. In Dade "inland" is mostly industrial or rough areas.

Anyway, it is what it is. People here choose to live here (same is true everywhere), and I don't hear too many complaints, except for the property tax and insurance rates.

 

Well, then lets go over the difference between mean and median. The mean is the absolute average of a set of data, and the median is the middle value of a set.

Basically, if you have a set of 10 houses, where 9 of them are worth 5, and the 10th one is worth 100, the mean would be 14.5 while the median would be 5. In that scenario the 10th one would skew the mean drastically, while the median would give you a far better picture of housing costs in that set of data, especially for the middle. The cost of the 10th one is wholly irrelevant for the affordability of housing for the middle. It literally is 100% irrelevant. For that reason, median is a FAR more accurate representation for what housing costs for the middle.

Of all places, Miami would be a place that has the upper end skewing the dataset due to many houses in the multi million dollar range that are FAR more expensive than the housing in Miami Dade for average Joes. For a place like Miami, the median home value is a MUCH more logical measure than is the mean home value that is going to be heavily skewed due to the very high end that exists there from a group of extremely wealthy people that for the most part are not earning their income from a paycheck.

The bottom line is that the conclusions that you are drawing in regards to affordability of Miami versus the affordability in places like Manhattan and San Francisco is misleading to say the very least.

There is an expression called lying with statistics, and this is a perfect example of such. I am not saying that you are per se, but most likely your source is.

 

And poverty, crime, pollution, feces, homelessness, poor performing schools, crumbling roads, excessive taxes, businesses fleeing, income inequality, illegal immigration, and no w a declining population.

I don't hear any complaints either. I am fortunate to earn a good living and live in a safe neighborhood. The complaints are out of earshot.