Ask a Taiwanese anything

Discussion in 'Asia' started by riza, May 26, 2010.

  1. lynx

    lynx Well-Known Member

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    HK has been ruled by Britain for 150s something years, how is that not democracy?
     
  2. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

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    Hong Kong was created and ruled by Britain. The relationship was colony and colonizer. Only within the last decade of its control did Britain allow local democracy to develop in HK. Now HK is ruled by the Chinese Communist Party like all of China, except Taiwan.
     
  3. riza

    riza Member

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    It's unfortunate China went with simplified. My family use traditional. China should go back to traditional.

    Self / national interest. Not much more beyond that. Self-preservation, etc. Soviet Union was doing nearly exactly the same thing when she went head on with the US.

    China, right off the bat. I would rather see China lead. There needs to be competition between East and West. A 'national monopoly' is never good.
     
  4. pay_check

    pay_check New Member

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    hello,

    I don't want to insult anyone, however the responses riza has given so far are not the dominant opinions of people living in Taiwan, especially among the young.

    I think perhaps this is because riza lives in America, and is not in touch with Taiwan.

    Ask a young person (under 30) what their nationality is and whether they live in Taipei, Changhua or Kenting, and the response will normally be 'I am Taiwanese'.

    You only have to see Mainland Chinese students talking with Taiwanese students outside of Asia, such as the UK where i live, to understand how sensitive this is for Taiwan born Taiwanese.

    Often the Chinese students will assert that Taiwanese people are 'actually' Chinese in nationality, leaving the Taiwanese person pretty angry and hurt. You will find, most Chinese and Taiwanese students who hangout together in will purposely avoid this subject because it is so touchy.

    About the KMT. Taiwanese people were ruled by the KMT since 1950, many viewed the KMT as Chinese outsiders just as the Japanese administration had also been viewed as outsiders.

    Taiwan became 'chineseified' because 2 million chinese assumed the top politcal positions after they fled the mainland.

    Taiwanese nationalism is also a strong political current within Taiwan these days, with Taiwanese people actively trying to bring back the Taiwanese language as it was in the past suppressed by the KMT. There is a erratic process of Taiwanization.

    In general Taiwanese people living in Taiwan do not view themselves as part of the "big chinese family".
     
  5. riza

    riza Member

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    That is the first time I've heard Taiwan referred to as `TI`.


    It's actually split 50-50. It depends on who you ask. The younger generations born and raised in Taiwan I've met consider themselves Chinese.

    Oh I live in US but I am also still in touch with Taiwan, I still have my citizenship / passport for Taiwan.

    That's extremely vague. Ask any American where they're from, they'll say "I'm New Yorker" or "Cali" or "Jersey". It's a very similar context and the kind of question that can be twisted around to support either positions.

    Think Frank Luntz.

    It is relative, I am a Taiwan born Taiwanese. I was not born in the United States, I immigrated here. I have my immigration # in the back of my passport.

    Depends. I've never had anybody that I talk to avoid this.

    To clarify, do you mean indigenous Taiwanese people?

    Again, split 50/50. Depends on so many things here. Now we can actually factor down to splinter groups.
     
  6. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

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    Hang out at chinese chat at asiafinest.com and you'll pick up a variety of terms.

    I thought you lived in Canada. You're going back to Taiwan or to China aren't you after you complete your studies?
     
  7. riza

    riza Member

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    Whoa, Canada? How did you get that impression?

    Depends really. I plan to get married here.
     
  8. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

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    I mistakenly thought you said you lived in Canada. I don't remember why.

    Congratulations on the upcoming wedding. Best wishes for both of you.
     
  9. riza

    riza Member

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    No no, I mean I plan in the future. Sorry for all the misunderstanding and any future misunderstanding. :mrgreen:

    I mean I plan to marry in United States, not China. I'm with somebody at the moment but hopefully that becomes fruitful.
     
  10. Ivy

    Ivy Newly Registered

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    More correspond to the fact ,I think~
     
  11. riza

    riza Member

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    What's with the new accounts??
     
  12. pay_check

    pay_check New Member

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    “It's actually split 50-50. It depends on who you ask. The younger generations born and raised in Taiwan I've met consider themselves Chinese.” – riza
    This is a good article to understand the differences
    http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2006/03/12/2003296948
    Its suggests that the “only Chinese” in identity is marginal, “only Taiwanese” about 45% and “both Chinese and Taiwanese” about 40 to 50 %.

    To dual identity is not surprising since mandarin is the main language on the island.
    However, a further study finds that it is more complex. Taiwan residents further subdivide themselves in Han (han Chinese) at about 13%, aborigine at about 2%, and the Hakka and Hoklo ethnicities as the rest.
    I think the relationship with mandarin as being the dominant language in Taiwan, (while really good for Taiwan in terms of business) has a dampening and confusing effect on national identity. A shadow that will eventually be lifted as more Taiwanese become aware of Taiwanese languages from an earlier age. As is the current trend.

    “Oh I live in US but I am also still in touch with Taiwan, I still have my citizenship / passport for Taiwan.” – riza


    I respect that, but it’s probably not helping anyone to present what you said as Taiwanese only, rather it’s a Taiwanese/American perspective. I know a doctor from Taiwan, who practiced in the USA for 40 years. Culturally, he holds few of the values and ideas that most Taiwanese his age do (he is about 70 I think). His entire outlook is Americanised, it’s not a bad thing, but it is relevant to you also in my opinion.

    “That's extremely vague. Ask any American where they're from, they'll say "I'm New Yorker" or "Cali" or "Jersey". It's a very similar context and the kind of question that can be twisted around to support either positions.

    Think Frank Luntz. “ – Riza


    Except, it would be impossible for a New Yorker to respond to the question, what’s your nationality as “im a New Yorker”, to the same extent, a shanghainese person would also not response with “ I am shanghainese” when asked what nationality they have. Taiwan people do, just have to look at President Ma, when he gets asked his nationality by the DPP all the time to score political points. He has to answer “ I’m a citizen of the ROC”, because if he said “Chinese” he would get slaughtered in the polls. The DPP know it, so does he.
    I think the top article I linked also relates to this point.

    “Depends. I've never had anybody that I talk to avoid this.” – Riza

    Fair enough, one of my best friends was challenged by a Chinese friend, when he said, why don’t you want to be part of china, you are just getting used by America (words to that effect). My friend replied, better to be the guard dog of American than the slave of china. She didn’t even got annoyed because of the use of Da Lu or mainland, rather than china.

    “To clarify, do you mean indigenous Taiwanese people?” – Riza

    Yes, the Hoklo, Hakka and aborigine people.


    Also, as a Taiwanese person, you are really lucky because you can get a really good job in China Taiwan Hong Kong because you are bilingual haha. I really hope you do go to Taiwan to stay there for a while. I literally love Taiwan, I have never felt to welcomed in such a different culture.
     
  13. pay_check

    pay_check New Member

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    HAHA I would place money Ivy is from Taiwan. using ~~~~ alot in my experience indicates that.
     
  14. riza

    riza Member

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    I've seen that source from my debates / argument with others in the past about Taiwan.

    Here is the problem with that source. The writer and the newspaper both admit bias for Taiwanese independence: "Part of the Liberty Times group, the Taipei Times strongly supports the protection of Taiwan’s democracy in an increasingly complex and unpredictable region."

    In fact, that is on their website, in wiki and other sources as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Times

    "It is one of the four major newspapers in Taiwan, the other three being the Apple Daily, the China Times, and the United Daily News. While the United Daily News is regarded as taking an editorial line that supports unification, the Liberty Times is thought to take a Pan Green pro-independence political stance."

    I've grown tired of this kind of debate. We'll see how it plays out and that's it.

    All I can say is I am for reunification and I can gather sources and link to you just the same.
     
  15. pay_check

    pay_check New Member

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    Mainland Affairs Council has many detailed polls which confer the same opinions expressed in that Taipei Times article. The ROC gov is technically pro-unification too.

    LOL @ "The writer and the newspaper both admit bias for Taiwanese independence" - Riza

    that's because Taiwan is already independent, which most of the population support. the writer holds the mainstream opinion.

    They are in touch with Taiwanese opinion. You are out of touch with Taiwanese opinion.

    Taiwan is very likely to be a legitimate legally independent country once China becomes a democracy.
     
  16. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

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    I don't think Han China is ever likely to become a democracy. If someone has some deeper insight on this matter I would appreciate hearing it.
     
  17. pay_check

    pay_check New Member

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    Albert,

    The pro-democracy faction of the CCP is getting much stronger. China's rapid development has eradicated Marxism/communism from most Chinese people's minds as being legitimate. Old people, hard line communists, and wealthy young professionals might support the communist party and a single party system.

    In fact Chinese people supposedly hate discussing politics at all. They don't really, but you will find people don't voice their opinions when voicing it causes them trouble.

    I mean, the CCP cannot do anything like the tiananmen square massacre (which happened all over china) again.

    I am curious, at a time when the world is seeing unprecedented movements towards democracy why do you think China wont follow suit. i might be missing something obvious lol.
     
  18. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

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    The world is no longer moving towards democracy. With the end of Pax Americana democracy is beginning to be rolled back. Russia is an example. Venezuela is an example. In many lands throughout the world we see the adoption of the forms of democracy without adoption of the substance.

    Taiwanese democracy was an outgrowth of American influence. Democracy is an alien concept to the Chinese. Taiwan will lose its democracy as it is integrated with China. There may be a pretense of democracy just as there is in Hong Kong, but it is a pretense only. Do you consider Singapore to be a democracy?

    For democracy to be established in China it would be necessary for the Chinese Communist Party to allow competition in the realm of politics. This is anathema to the leading role of the Party in Chinese society.

    Factionalism within the Party is not the same as democracy. China is still ruled by the Standing Committee of the Politburo of the CCP. That will remain the case into the foreseeable future. Above all else the Chinese wish to avoid chaos. Democracy brings the risk of chaos with it.
     
  19. pay_check

    pay_check New Member

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    Thanks Albert,

    I desperately hope you are wrong about the world not moving towards democracy! I think the Arab revolutions might give us a little hope!
    I do agree with you, especially about Russia. There is a democracy intellectual called Robert Dahl, he came up with polyarchy. It is a list of points by which we can measure the extent of how democratic a society is. Like free press, and competitive elections etc.

    Actually, I think it was an outgrowth of popular hatred of the ruling KMT. The Taiwanese movement was both a process of democratisation, and an expression of a desire for Taiwan to be run by native Taiwanese. Taiwanese remember the horrors of the one party state, they hated it and will not give up it to the communists.
    NO!!

    I don't disagree with you, but I am not sure the CCP has much durability.

    Again I agree, but I hope that China will become more advanced in the future.
     
  20. RollingWave

    RollingWave New Member

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    Depends, I'm quite 100% positive that the CPP would not like to take it by force if they can avoid it, the risk and the geopolitical implications are massive, if they somehow managed to solve those problems (to the point of say... where the US and the world publically declare they won't help Taiwan and it should surrender to the mainland) then we're not going to fight a fight that has no hope, but this would be an extremely unlikely turn of events to say the least.

    As for simplify or traditional chinese, there has never been serious talk in Taiwan of switching to simplify, but there has been some talks of switching back to traditional in China which should summerize much, all the pre 1950 writings are in traditional chinese, which in itself would already be a considerable motivation to switch back, it is hard for even a college grad in China to read authentic historical text because of the switch, where as any literate people in Taiwan would have no problem.

    How about the small problem that it never held a election until 1985? and even then the "elections" would be nothing like what you would call democracy, there was NEVER EVER universal sufferage in Hong Kong during the British Era. you could look this up yourself. There were general civil liberty yes, but it was never a real democracy at all.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_development_in_Hong_Kong

    Wether it would be a democracy in the sense of other country is unknown, but the fact is that there are unmistakable similarity between China today and Taiwan / South Korea in say... the 60s-90s depending on which aspect you look at.

    That is quite wrong, because Taiwan was even more authoritarian than China today (by quite a large margin too) when the US actually supported it strongly, in the era of Chang Kai Sheik the difference between Taiwan and China was marginal in essence, one side can't go to the Soviet bloc country and the other can't go to the US bloc, the only real difference was perhaps that Chang never went for the crazy movements that killed millions like Mao. but otherwise they were quite similar.

    It is ironic that Taiwan's democratic movement came pretty much the moment the US stopped reconginzing the ROC . The first major event that is often considered the birth of Taiwan's democratic movement came exactly on the same year that US broke official relationship with Taiwan. (the US broke at the start of the year, the incident at the end of the year). the US was also never too bothered by the various military dictators of South Korea during most of it's existence (it didn't really become a real democracy until the 90s!)

    History is almost never in black and white, the Chang family was in reality not friendly with the US at all, they just used each other out of neccesity, the US had at least on 2 different occasion ploted to assasinate / overthrow the elder Chang, while the younger one was actually educated in the USSR and his wife was from Belarus (who he married in the USSR). The history of the KMT is very very interwined with the CCP, during the civil war in 45-49, most of the generals fighting on both side went to the exact same military academy (who's first Principle was...... non other than Chang Kai Shek.) The Chang regime had tried numerous times to go nuclear and came pretty close to succeeding (closer than Iran is today) before i was sabotaged by.... the CIA.


    As for thinking we're Taiwanese or Chinese, this is a tricky question nowadays because it interwines politics with culture, from a abosalute culture sense with no politics attached at all most people in Taiwan won't have a problem calling themself Chinese, but once the political implication settles in then much much fewer of us are willing to call ourself Chinese.

    There are alot of intrigues and ironies in history, when the ROC formally wrote it's consitution in 1947, it was actually one of democracy, that year they held the first ever (and up to today still ONLY) general election in China, but soon they got completely owned by Mao and fled to Taiwan, and instated Martial Law on the Island for a wooping 38 years. and used it as the legal excuse for not actually doing what the consitution says it was suppose to, though luckily that also meant that when the Younger Chang passed away (and ended Martial laws before he died and decreed that he will NOT be succeded by his sons) we had a decent framwork to go with already.
     
  21. RollingWave

    RollingWave New Member

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    There will be a major election in about a month in Taiwan the President and all the legislative seats are up for grab.

    so far it looks like a tight race, the KMT are sure to cough back some of the swing seats they won last time around, and the Presidency is much closer than first expected. (though I personally still think Ma will win.)
     

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