Horses Domesticated 9,000 Years Ago.

Camels were beasts of burden long before the camel saddle.. and they were ideally suited to travel across sand and dunes because of their feet.. where wheels would NEVER have worked.

The Arabia peninsula was more savannah like 10,000 years ago.. maybe they used horses before camels.

Wheels were used in ancient Arabia for grinding operations.

 

not all animals can be domesticated and level of domestication varies, zebra's cannot be domesticated as successfully as a horse, not all animals can be ridden nor will all animals pull a cart for various behavioral issues...domestication works with animals whose social bahaviour is suitable...it not a simple matter of putting "two together"...

 

And NOT every terrain was suitable for wheeled carts.

Certainly sand dunes were not.

 

you'll need to back that up I know of no art left behind by neanderthals and even deliberate burial is highly suspect...

 

explain what physical advantages we have over neolithic man in horse domestication? and I believe horses of the neolithic were in fact considerably smaller than today's domestic horse, the remaining wild horse of today stands only 48inches at the shoulder...

 

When were Llamas domesticated ?

 

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/pre_norman_history/neolithic_age.html

Evidence for neolithic burials in northern Ireland at lin above.

Yes, horses seem to have been smaller..

The Arab horse is small, fast and had tremendous endurance.. The were also considered smart and gentle.

Roman horses were much larger, not very smart but able to carry heavily armored men..

While I know that there is a big time gap between neolithic man and the Romans.. there has to be some selective breeding going on to have such a variance....

 

even the arab horse is large in comparison to the wild horse...I was questioning why he felt neolithic man was physically incapable of domesticating a horse...neolithic horses were smaller than today's and neolithic man was every bit as intelligent and physically capable as we are...

 

I don't know, if my daughter the archeologist ever wakes up out of her slumber I'll ask her...

 

Ask her if Neolithic Man in the Middle East could lift 1200 ton each stones(trilithon stones of Baalbek) 25 feet into the air and stack them on top of each other thousands of years prior to the earliest Dynasties in Egypt too ?

 

http://nabataea.net/horse.html

The Arabian Horse and the Nabataeans

There are certain arguments for the ancestral Arabian having been a wild horse in northern Syria, southern Turkey and possibly farther east in Mesopotamia. The area along the northern edge of the Fertile Crescent comprising part of Iraq and running along the Euphrates and west across Sinai and along the coast to Egypt, offered a mild climate and enough rain to provide an ideal environment for horses.

Other historians suggest this unique breed originated in the southwestern part of Arabia. They suggest that the three great river beds in this area provided a natural wild pasture and were obviously the centers in which the Arabian horse first appeared as an undomesticated creature.

(snip)

Another important aspect that the Roman army desired in their horses as a lack of intelligence. They preferred great strong horses that would not think for themselves but would blindly follow their masters into dangerous situations.

Thus, the Roman cavalry was made up of great brutes of horses that charged into almost certain death with little fear.

Unfortunately, the Arabian horse did not fit this requirement, as it was a very intelligent horse, capable of thinking for itself. It was highly prized by the Arabs, for its ability to survive in the desert, and was perfectly suited to individuals and small groups.

As a result, the Arabian horse was not bred in the stables of Europe, but was relegated to the breeding activities of marginalized peoples in Arabia.

 

You seem to have missed the point. Re-read what I said again.

Domestication has many meanings. This originally meant the taming of animals for food. This was not very hard to do, and was done long before their use as beasts of burden. This is also "domestication".

And a lot of animals that were domesticated for food were not used for beasts of burden for many reasons. After all, goats and sheep were among the original animals domesticated, but their use as beasts of burden has always been limited. The same goes for llamas.

Zebras could easily be domesticated, but that does not mean they would make suitable beasts of burden.

Oh, and to answer the earlier question, llamas were originally domesticated at around 4,000 BCE. This was done for several reasons, the largest being their ability to live at high altitude off of poor quality forage, for their wool, and as a food source. The oldest llama pack frames found only date to around 200 BCE.

And before the question is asked, this is because the llama really is not a very good pack animal. They are on average the size of a man, and can only carry loads of around 50-75 pounds (23-34 kg) for around 20 miles (32 km) a day. They only became somewhat efficient during the Chavin culture, when the infrastructure for large numbers of llamas organized in caravans became possible. This is when the llama started to make the move from food source to beast of burden. Because it was only when they could be organized in caravans of 20+ animals that they started to be more efficient then human load carriers.

 

I don't know about the time line, but no one lifted things "in the air"...simple mechanics can move nearly anything, in a complex society like ours the simplesst technology often goes forgotten...but ya I'll ask her when she comes home, forgot to ask her the llama question...

 

Another bit of trivia ... Concrete dates to 5600 BC.

 

I understood the post I was addressing "putting the two together" ie horse/llama and carraige...it isn't that simple

and zebra's because of their nature are not suitable as domestic animals which is why other than in isolated experimental situations it's not pursued, they're far too aggressive and unpredictable...

your timeline may be correct for the llamas I question the logic of of them being inefficient, a load of 50-75 lbs over 32k is awesome particularly in rugged terrain at altitude...20K in one day at altitude is about the comfortable limit for a man without a pack let alone a 50-75lbs...I've back packed in the mountains a fair bit a llama would have been a help...

 

Come on now, really? 1,200 ton stones? You are only off by a factor of 4 the weight of the stones involved (the monolith itself weighs in at around 1,000 tons, the cap stone at around 350 tons).

And they did not have to "lift" it. Have you never heard of a ramp? That is likely how all of them were placed. The upright stones were likely moved in flat, then with the use of a ramp were moved to an upright position.

Then you build up a large ramp from the ground to the top, and drag the capstone into place. Then you simply remove the ramp.

This is how such structures have been built for thousands of years.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/egypt/raising/

 

checking a llama packing site I found this...

edit: adult llamas can carry 30% of their body weight which varies from 280 to 450lbs...so 93lbs to 150lbs, other factors include the terrain, condition of the animal and willingness to do it, like camels if they're not in the mood they're not moving...93-150 lbs is a considerable benefit...

 

wasn't there someone in florida who built massive moving sculptures and such with only simple levers by himself? I recall seeing it on tv years ago...

my father a stone mason used techniques used by the Egyptians and Romans...the basic technology hasn't changed it's just unknown to us modern urban types...

 

It certainly blew my mind..

http://sacredsites.com/middle_east/lebanon/baalbek.html other pics.

Unless this was like precast concrete which existed as early as 5600 BC.

 

the largest Egyptian obelisk comes in at 1000 tons and there's no doubt they moved them...technology existed in ancient times these people were as smart as we are they just made do with the tools they had...

 

Lewis Vandercar?? The Florida artist??

 

as did this one for me...

 

It depends on what use you want to make of them. Cattle are dangerous and unpredictable also. But as a food animal, you do not have to interact with or train them. Just keep them in a controlled area until you are ready to eat them.

But put it in context. A man can carry the same weight the same distances for days in a row without a problem. I have done it myself a great many times.

Animals however can't do that. Are you aware that a man can run a horse to death? Horses are great sprinters, but lack the ability to run for great distances. And because they (and llamas) are herbivores, they require much less efficient food, and require longer feeding times.

Your average pack animal can only make an average of 20 miles a day, with 1 day out of 3 or 4 for rest. A human can do the same thing, without the need to take a day off for rest. And because of our higher efficiency diet, we can make even longer distances if needed.

In fact, are you aware of the history of another one of our domestic animals, the Chihuahua? During the Tolted and Aztec empires, the only real pack animals were humans. And in those climates, keeping food fresh was almost impossible. So to ensure that the human caravans could keep moving, they needed to have a portable food source that could be used as needed.

Enter the ancestor of the Chihuahua, athe Techichis. A small dog, each of them made up a perfect sized meal for 2-3 people. And since they could eat almost anything, keeping them fed on the trail was simple. mice, lizards, small birds, even some plants were their diet. Then when they stop for the night, they simply butchered one of their dogs.

When the Azted Empire was destroyed, the introduction of horses and mules along with carts eliminated the need for human caravans. And this almost made the Techichi extinct, since they were no longer needed as a self-mobile lunch. All surviving Chihuahua's are descendent from 3 dogs that were discovered in Chihuahua, Mexico in 1850.

 

could be...

 

He worked mostly in concrete.. and hired students from USF in the summer as hod carriers.

He was an interesting guy.. a witch, but very friendly and charming.