Bill of Rights...what makes america....america

Discussion in 'United States' started by obediant_consumer, Jan 13, 2012.

  1. three_lions

    three_lions New Member

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    Shiva, you seem to be under the impression that the Monarchy was in control of the state by the late 18th century and that is not the case. The 17th century is Britain was very turbulent and by the end of that century the Monarchy lost most of its power, which is why I said once great Monarchy. Britain is hardly a Monarchy now and it has been that way for two and a half centuries. The loss of a strong executive has weakened this country to the point where we are now not even capable of punishing criminal scum within our own borders. Western Europe is weaker now than ever and it is the result of a loss of power at the executive level in each case.
     
  2. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    I had a friend from your neck o the woods a few years ago that I used to banter with about legal matters, and from what I can tell your country has turned into the same legal abortion ours is as a result of the constant undermining of our government systems by mobsters.

    Lets start with the commercialization of everything including your soul! Banksters and those who suck off of their crumbs!

    Statutes are criminal because life simply does not fit into little squares and circles etc that statutes force people into.

    They change the words and then argue over the words. I would be shocked if it I were to dig deep into your law today that I would not wind up in the same place I did with ours.

    Do people realize that when you say strong executive you are saying king?
     
  3. three_lions

    three_lions New Member

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    I certainly hope so. I am not hiding that I am a monarchist am I? The idea that anything can be bought and sold is also a problem for any society. I am not some anti capitalist, but I am also no proponent of free markets.
     
  4. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    No nation has the "Right" to initiate war against another nation. While it has obviously happened repeatedly in history, as have the violations of the inalienable Rights of the Individual, any such act is an act of tyranny.

    At a national level the initiation of war against another nation is no different than an individual taking a gun, invading their neighbor's house, and killing their neighbor and that is AGAINST THE LAW.

    A military invasion of one country by another country is also against international law as established but the UN Charter which expressly prohibits it. Only defensive military actions are authorized under the UN Charter which is a legal (treaty) obligation of all member nations to comply with.
     
  5. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    I'm no expert on the problems of Britian today as I'm an American raised based upon American Ideals.

    Under the Ideals that America was founded on the purpose of government is to protect the inalienable Rights of the People (see my signature). All laws should be related to the protection of the Rights of the People. Our government was not founded upon any principle that the government had a responsibility to "punish" the People. The criminal justice system of the United States was not created for the purpose of punishment but instead for the purpose of protection and there is a huge difference between the two.

    Many, including Americans, have a distorted view of the criminal justice system in America. "Justice" is not about convicting the guilty. Justice in America is about not convicting the innocent. That is what "criminal justice in America" is all about. It is better to let ten guilty men go free than it is to convict one innocent person. Criminal justices is about ensuring that the innocent go free. That take precedent over convicting the guilty.

    Many also misunderstand what incarceration is really for and what it should be limited to. Incarceration is about removing a person that, beyond a reasonable doubt, would violate the inalienable Rights of the Individual if allowed the freedom to do so. The incarceration is not about punishing "criminal scum" but instead it's about protecting society from "criminal scum" and it is not punishment.

    Punishment relates to "revenge" and the government has no authority to seek revenge as that is not the purpose of the American government as established by the Declaration of Independence.

    This is why I consistantly argue against capital punishment in the United States. It isn't required to protect society from even the most heineous individuals. We need protection from the "criminal scum" and the infringement upon their inalienable Right to liberty by incarceration is a pragmatic necessity in this regard. There is no justification for violation of their Right to Life as that is unnecessary to protect society from them.

    Always remember that America revolted against England based upon alligations of the violations of the inalienable Rights of the American People. America revolted against tyranny. It is probably impossible for anyone from Britian even today to understand the differences between America and Britian but the differences are fundamental as the two nations are founded upon completely different principles and ideals.
     
  6. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Its a necessary evil and "could" go as far as come under self defense.

    However war today like government has eroded to money and that is absolutely wrong. If the afghans do not want to sell their oil so be it. we and the uk have no right to trump up a war to force the matter. but we did. NAtion building just like they did with the indians et al here. Install a military rule until a government of their bidding is in place and charge taxes for the pleasure of being ruled. "by them"
     
  7. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    lets go over them



    Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

    He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

    since public today is considered government nope we have plenty of "Public" laws *against individual rights*.


    He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

    Guantanamo! Domestic terrorism. arrest US citizens and inhabitants! Even worse today than now! SS squads, blackwater etc etc


    He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

    Today we have representation lip service. we vote on "virtually" nothing, the state was created against the will of the people by the so called representatives,

    ~Patriot act, Military commissions act, "executive orders"?????


    [​IMG]



    He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

    try appealing a case when you are about to kick their butt and the judge thought he could fake you out and was a naughty boy which happens all the time, and see how the lower courts will play games and do anything in their power to make it difficult for you.

    Who has time to read the volumes upon volumes of statutes and then by-laws and then regulations and then ordinances and so forth before you dare walk across the street to inside you are in compliance.

    Ignorance of the law is NO EXCUSE 60 million of the not with standing.


    He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

    Here they come together in as one big happy commercial mobster family, exactly the opposte with the same result!


    He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected;

    we now have judges and 10 second hackable elctronic voting machines are electing our el' prazze dante not the "People"!

    whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

    Where was 911 protection,

    Yeh the "perpetual union"! What a load of crap! that is state slavery. and repeat:

    Who has time to read the volumes upon volumes of statutes and then by-laws and then regulations and then ordinances and so forth before you dare walk across the street to inside you are in compliance.


    He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
    He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

    We made one and he/they have bought and paid for it, and its decisions!


    He has made Judges dependent on his Will (corporations) alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

    The executive (king) appoints them here, and the people have no power to throw them out.
    .

    He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.

    Constant growth, federal reserve, fbi, nsa, atf, homeland insecurity and the beat goes on.


    He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

    No these guys are smarter, they keep us in perpetual war instead! and when they run out of one war they invent one, on drugs no less!!


    He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

    Go ahead and see if the military is subordinate to the civil power when we have a sovereign commander-in-chief at the helm!

    He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
    the statutization and abolishment of common law, injury-less crimes and penalties and so forth and so on!

    For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
    black water mercenary corporation.

    For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
    we dont know which group is doing that do we? Its always cleverly disguised as something else.

    For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
    Times have changed! FOR giveing it away!

    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
    I never consented to paying taxes in fact I objected to paying taxes, but I still pay taxes, not just taxes all taxes that THEY feel I should pay!

    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
    For many people its cost prohibitive, for others and in this state if it does not come under soemthing no previous adjucated the court will summarily reject it due to precedence without going to the merits.

    For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
    For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, (common law regurgitation) establishing therein an Arbitrary government,
    its a well known fact that government we have, if not otherwise obvious since 1868 is a defacto NOT dejure government!
    and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

    If we vote on next to nothing and we are forced to do what the legislature passes that sounds to me like absolute rule. We never won any revolution they did!


    For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

    How many times have they done that? I can count 4 immediately and without a thought! Patrick Henry even wipes their noses in it!

    For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

    Executive orders treated as laws! administrative agencies making (*)(*)(*)(*) up as they go and the courts upholding it no less! How low must we go before we get it?


    He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

    There are numerous cases all the way to the supreme court where it has been ruled that the government has no obligation to protect us!


    He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people. 911, oh wait that was cia poperative osama bn laden

    He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

    Back to guantanamo and all those interrogation bases on US controlled territory!


    He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

    He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.


    Oh not today, they use the news media to lull people sleep then wake them up in shock and awe while they quickly do their despotic acts and after its done claim "well we cant turn back now" and a host of other outlaw reasons.



    Idealism and that american dream only goes so far.






    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q"]George Carlin ~ The American Dream - YouTube[/ame]
     
  8. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Northwest ordinance:

    The following three principal provisions were ordained in the document:
    (1) a division of the Northwest Territory into "not less than three nor more than five States";
    (2) a three-stage method for admitting a new state to the Union—with a congressionally appointed governor, secretary, and three judges to rule in the first phase; an elected assembly and one nonvoting delegate to Congress to be elected in the second phase, when the population of the territory reached "five thousand free male inhabitants of full age"; and a state constitution to be drafted and membership to the Union to be requested in the third phase when the population reached 60,000; and
    (3) a bill of rights protecting religious freedom, the right to a writ of habeas corpus, the benefit of trial by jury, and other individual rights. In addition the ordinance encouraged education and forbade slavery.




    welcome to lower canada

    ideals are only ideals

    seriously need it be any more obvious?
     
  9. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Alodial ownership of land declined as feudal tenure became established. <-- more lies, allodial land ownership is the precise opposite of feudal tenure, it is no tenure!

    OOPS!

    Made an error;

    this is correct:
    Alodial ownership of land declined as feudal tenure became established.
     
  10. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    No, let's not. As noted the creditability of the grievances listed could be debated endlessly and that is not the point. The point is that the People of America believed that the British Crown was tyrannical in it's political control of the Americas.

    In establishing the opposition to tyranny it's the perception of tyranny that takes precedence whether that tyranny does, in fact, exist or not.

    A perfect example of that exists today with the terrorist threat against America. Whether we believe we're tyrannical in our military interventionism on the world is irrelevant to Muslims that believe we are. Their acts of terrorism are a direct response to their preception that the United States is committing acts of tyranny. Of note they do have a lot of supportive evidence related to the perception they have.

    The same was true in 1776. Regardless of what England believed or even what history establishes the colonists perceived acts of tyranny being committed against them and they revolted against it.

    Simple solution to the problem. Governments should not engage in acts that can be perceived as being tyrannical and the problem disappears.
     

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