Why does Homeopathy seem to irk skeptics the most?

Discussion in 'Health Care' started by suede, Sep 30, 2011.

  1. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    I used a homeopathic remedy for teething pains on all my children when they were babies. It worked for all of them.

    I reccomended the product to friends and family, all of whom were delighted with the results.
     
  2. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Lil - if it works it should be tested scientifically - that is all we are asking. We are not actually insisting that everyone does away with Homeopathy, just that they prove their claims

    Now as for teething - rubbing the gums may have given the exact same effect - or more interestingly your belief and therefore your attitude when tending the child could have induced a placebo effect for the child - much like putting a band-aid on a "Boo Boo"

    Unless a double blind study is done we will not know
     
  3. Skepticat

    Skepticat New Member

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    No, double-blinded. Read point 4 again.

    And yes of course the homeopathic hospitals are being closed because it is a publicly-funded health service and every penny counts. That is why they commissioned an inquiry into homeopathy and invited homeopaths to contribute. The result of the inquiry found that homeopathy is a crock and, as we prefer our taxes to spent on treatments that do work, authorities are now clamping down.

    In one way it's a shame because it would obviously be a lot cheaper to use homeopathy if only it worked.
     
  4. Skepticat

    Skepticat New Member

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    Indeed. The larger and better quality the trial, the more accurate the result.
     
  5. suede

    suede Banned

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    So how can it be a double-blinded study when how homeopathy works, the homeopath does their best to select a remedy they think best matches up for the totality of the individual patient's specific symptoms?

    For example, if two patients both come in complaining of a "headache," one of the patients may complain that their headache has a "throbbing sensation" that is relieved by sitting up and worsened by laying down where as the other patient complains their headache feels like a "vise grip" that is relieved by lying down, but worsened by sitting up. Knowing this, the trained Homeopath would select the best remedy they feel closely matches up with the totality of both of those patient's symptoms, which could mean the two patients will most likely be given different remedies for their respected headaches.

    Note that the remedies selected will be based on how well trained the Homeopath is, which could mean if ten people with the same type of headache are treating by ten different homeopaths, they might still be recommended different remedies based on how skilled each Homeopath is.

    So how would you get a double-blinded study out of that?

    Well how many and which ones? You said, "The publicly-funded UK National Health Service is closing down homeopathic hospitals like there's no tomorrow." Sounds like a lot.

    A lot of people think that is the real reason TPTB in medicine hate homeopathy so much, they don't want the competition.
     
  6. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    If it is more effective than a placebo, then that fact should be easily demonstrated in a lab.

    However, there is a reason why homeopathy is referred to as homeopathy and not medicine.
     
  7. RPA1

    RPA1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The properties of water are still being discovered. Recent studies and experiments show that water has a 'memory' and partially emulates that which it comes in contact with which is part of homeopathy theory. There is a good documentary called "Our Knowledge is But a Drop" You can find it on 'doxbox' on Hulu. Very interesting.
     
  8. Skepticat

    Skepticat New Member

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    Why are you having such a problem comprehending plain English? This is what I suggested:

    1. Agree on outcome measures
    2. Recruit volunteers
    3. Give them all consultations with homeopaths;
    4. Randomise them into a control group and a treatment group, without telling them or the homeopaths which group they are in
    5. Give the control group ordinary sugar pills and make up the "individualised remedies" for the treatment group according to the prescriptions of the homeopaths;
    6. Compare the results of the treatment group to the control group

    Note point 3. Now you tell me how that doesn't allow for the homeopaths selecting a remedy they think best matches up for the totality of the individual patient's specific symptoms.

    I don't know how many homeopathic hospitals were originally nationalised but we are now down to one (London) that is still fully equipped. One (Tunbridge Wells) was closed down a couple of years ago, the one in Glasgow has already had to close its "pharmacy", the one in Bristol is under threat and the supposed on in Liverpool closed but it turned out not to be a proper hospital anyway. I probably should have said 'homeopathy services' rather than hospitals as there were never many hospitals but there are a few homeopaths working in the NHS in proper hospitals and GP surgeries. Not for much longer though. To get back to your original argument that homeopathy is popular enough, it is precisely because the weight of scientific evidence is against it that it is in decline in the UK.

    LMAO! Which TPTB are you talking about? TPTB running our NHS would love homeopathy if only it worked.
     
  9. suede

    suede Banned

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    Um, I said "how can it be a double-blinded study?," or is the study you're envisioning just seeks to prove if homeopathy works, regardless of what remedy is selected for whatever illness? So if there were a 100 participants, there could theoretically be 100 different remedies used for the same study?

    Well here in the U.S., the Pharmaceutical industry and AMA essentially run the show. Glad to hear the UK is free of corruption and influence.
     
  10. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Same way as we do any other trial - take a look at one of the most successful drug trials ever performed the ISIS trials - in particular ISIS II

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Studies_of_Infarct_Survival

    The ISIS II trial was about ASPIRIN and streptokinase - it was so successful that they stopped the trial before they completed the full numbers because so many more patients were surviving better in the drug group than the placebo group that it was unethical to continue the trial.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2899772

    Today if you have a suspected heart attack the one of the very first things the ambulance give you is an aspirin

    We have save countless lives with thrombolysis and I have seen it myself reverse the changes on an ECG within minutes of administration

    In a medical model we would be looking for the CAUSE of that headache just in case it is a leaking aneurysm (weaker area of blood vessel in the brain which can and does kill rapidly if it ruptures) We would treat a headache from stress differently to a headache from dehydration (which would definitely be cured by homeopathy) to a leaking cerebral aneurysm - and guess what all of those remedies have been put through research


    Hmmmmm - would you accept the same standard from the medical field? Would you accept that a junior doctor did not do a CT scan on a patient with a leaking cerebral aneurysm because they were not as well trained?

    Easy - medicine has DONE that

    Yeah suuuuure! When you have an Emergency room full of category 1-3 patients you really really really want those Category 5 patients that the Homeopaths love to treat
     
  11. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    So, the question remains - how does water know what to remember? The homeopathic remedy or the lining of the pipe it just came out of?
     
  12. RPA1

    RPA1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you want to discuss the documentary, please cite and example from it as I did, we can discuss that. This is, after all, still being researched and this phenomena is not yet well understood.

    For instance, the pattern produced when a particular flower is plunged into a glass of tap water is different than the plain tap water pattern. Why do you think that would be? Any answer?

    Also, the same flower produces similar patterns that are different from other flowers using the same method. Any answer?

    Did you watch the video?
     
  13. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Sorry don't do you tubes - find a science paper and we will discuss THAT

    Besides it is not available outside the USA - they must be afraid someone with an actual scientific background might get a hold of it.
     
  14. RPA1

    RPA1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    My post said clearly WHAT it was and WHERE it was and it was not 'you tubes'

    BTW You Tube is great...check it out sometime like EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD does.
     
  15. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    yes but when discussing scientific issues it is wise to use scientific sources - and your bloody video is still not available outside the USA
     
  16. RPA1

    RPA1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I see so I can't discuss anomalies like the nature of water that I happen to come across without providing 'scientific' sources? I gave my reference, you don't like it because you have a preconceived notion about homeopathy. Obviously if water can take on certain characteristics of whatever is around it then homeopathy may have some validity.

    Sorry you don't live in a place that has a lot of informative programs but then you wouldn't watch it anyway because it disagrees with your fundamental belief system.
     
  17. Skepticat

    Skepticat New Member

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    No. The point would be to prove that homeopathy works for a specific condition.
    Yes.

    The homeopaths write their indivualised prescriptions, which are made up by a third party. The patients are randomised by computer into a control and treatment group and those in the treatment group get their prescriptions and those in the control group get placebo. Neither the homeopaths nor the patients know who is getting what.
     
  18. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Yep That is right - and I have a preconceived notion about the quality of information on the internet too - just see my signature

    See I believe that science should be peer reviewed, it should be validated and it should be replicable

    But then I sometimes simply remember the saying from a countryman of yours - Robert Heinlien

    http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/30837.html

    Feel free to use homeopathy next time you have an unusual headache - after all when the homeopathy fails there is always conventional medicine - pity about the fact that often the homeopath delays conventional treatment until...........
     
  19. pjohns

    pjohns Well-Known Member

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    Some people may sincerely believe that a product has improved their health, simply because they want to believe it. That is why individual testimonials mean very little to me.

    Scientific, double-blind testing, on the other hand, means a great deal to me...
     
  20. Skepticat

    Skepticat New Member

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    Even if water can take on certain characteristics of whatever is around it there is still a long way to go before we can truthfully say that homeopathy may have some validity.

    The basic principle of homeopathy - the so-called 'Law of Similars' - would still be nonsense and the means by which the remedy 'stimulates the body's natural healing mechanism' still to be explained.

    I can't see the video either. Any references I can look up?
     
  21. RPA1

    RPA1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The patterns in water are replicable, for instance, the SAME flower produces the same pattern in every droplet of the water sample, moreover, that pattern is different from any other flower. These are experiments that are replicable with replicable results. But then, you don't watch informative documentaries.

    I will pursue any treatment and multiple treatments if I need to which includes everything from conventional medicine to herbal to homeopathy to nutrition to acupuncture etc. Just because one decides to use one method doesn't mean one abandons others.

    But then I live in America where we are more free.
     
  22. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    So if all documentaries are the last word in science then an "inconvenient Truth" must have been correct? She says in all innocence
     
  23. RPA1

    RPA1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not the point, obfuscation. I never said documentaries were science...stop lying. You are wasting my time. Bye now
     
  24. Skepticat

    Skepticat New Member

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    Really? I thought you needed health insurance for proper treatment. You can't just, say, turn up at hospital with a broken leg and get top quality medical care for free like you can in the UK, can you?

    The elderly American lady I shared a 400-mile train journey with recently had done exactly that. Missed her flight home because of an accident but spent much of the journey rhapsodising about how crap the American system is and how wonderful ours is.

    Just saying.
     
  25. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    The thing is, I'm talking about babies.

    There is no way babies can benefit from the placebo effect.

    Then you should open your mind a little bit, because it's not infallible.
     

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