Vietnam. Turbulent history.

Discussion in 'History & Past Politicians' started by snowisfun, Mar 21, 2012.

  1. snowisfun

    snowisfun Banned

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    There's an excellent book on Vietnam read titled "Vietnam a History" by Stanley J. Karnow. This book is 749 pages long & quite detailed. The Orient is interesting, but the history there has been bloody. The last war between Vietnam & China happened in 1979 over Langson. It discusses among other things Chinese colonization of Vietnam (Giao-Chi), Trinh-Nguyen Rebellion, Tayson Rebellion, French colonization of Vietnam, Ho Chi Minh, Ngo Dinh Diem, French-Indo China War, Vietnam War incl. Tet Offensive, etc.

    As it's very detailed, the book informs us that Vietnam has a long turbulent history. Saigon fell on Apr. 30, 1975 & Pres. Ford refused to intervene. Minh surrendered to Col. Bui Tin. The Soviets & the Chinese supplied weapons to the North Vietnamese, PRA. The U.S. didn't invade N. Vietnam. It sent CIA operatives (Vietnamese) auxiliaries to infiltrate N. Vietnam-carry out abductions, assassinations, etc. The Viet Cong made booby traps & B52s were used against the North Vietnamese-Napalm & cluster bombs. The Vietnam War also involved bombings & later incursions into Laos & Cambodia. Both Laos & Cambodia tried to remain neutral.

    We gave $2.5 billion help to the French during the French-Indo China War of 1945-54. We sent supplies & weapons to the French, though we were more involved in the Korean War. Pres. Eisenhower refused to intervene in that he refused to send American troops to help the French @ Dienbienphu in 1954. The Geneva Conference of 1954 divided Vietnam @ the 17th Parallel, with French PM Mendes & China's Zhou (or Chou) en Lai signing the truce.
    While the Vietnamese lost far more soldiers than the French, the Vietnamese won because Ho Chi Minh's Vietminh were willing to lose large #s of lives in their independece war.

    While many people think of the French-Indo China War of 1945-54 (Cambodia & Laos also got their independence in 1953 & 1954), the fact is that the Vietnamese had been fighting the French since the 1800s. Ho Chi Minh during Vietnam's independence war said that he would rather smell a few years of French sh!t than smell Chinese sh!t for the rest of time because he knew that once the French were gone, it's back to the old problems the Vietnamese & Chinese.

    After French-Indo China War, the Vietnam War actually began in 1957, where North Vietnamese guerillas (N.L.F. which Diem called Vietcong) infiltrators killed 400 South Vietnamese officials. We had sent troops to South Vietnam in the 1950s & in 1959, there was a Vietcong attack on an American base in Bienhoa. Vietnamese Buddhists with leader Tri Quang were unhappy with both the Communist & the corrupt South Vietnamese regimes. Self-immolations by Vietnamese Buddhist monks happened.

    The South Vietnamese govts. were corrupt. While the U.S. didn't participate in the coup against Ngo Dinh Diem in Nov. 1963, most members of the Kennedy Administration supported it, esp. Ambassador Lodge. Then V.P. LBJ was against it. Diem & his brother Nhu were killed shortly after surrendering in St. Francis Xavier Church in Chinatown.

    N. Vietnam during the 1950s had Agricultural Reform (along with a Peasant Revolt) & many landlords in North Vietnam were executed or imprisoned by Ho Chi Minh during these land or rural reforms. Ngo Dinh Diem didn't trust many, other than those in his family, such as Archbiship Thuc & Nhu. His sister in law called Madame Nhu was known as Vietnam's 1st lady. Diem defeated Bao Dai in a rigged election in 1955 & the 1956 plebiscite never took place. Diem oppressed Vietnamese Buddhists & Vietnam's 1st Lady made bad jokes about the suicides by the Buddhist monks.

    Diem & the corrupt post Diem leaders of South Vietnam after him were primarily concerned about themselves & not the Vietnamese people. Refugees would flee from North to South Vietnam. Both the Soviets & the Chinese supplied to the North Vietnamese. The North Vietnamese used Soviet made anti-aircraft missiles, radars & after 1971, Soviet made artillery, tanks & flamethrowers were used by the North Vietnamese. There were sometimes ethnic fights between Black & White soldiers. Fragmentation mutinies where soldiers harmed others with grenades sometimes happened. Drug use wasn't uncommon among soldiers, as life of a soldier can be stressful, long periods of boredom coupled with times of sheer terror of fighting in Vietnam. Defoliant herbicides like Agent Orange was used to kill crops. Vietnam produces rice in addition to rubber.

    Napalm was used in air attacks-napalm was used in WW2 & Korea but had more popularity in Vietnam. As napalm melts the skin, it causes horrible deaths or wounds to the burn victims. Cluster bombs which send hundreds of pellets cause horrible deaths. Parachute glided daisy cutter bombs were used. They say that 100,000 civilians were killed during bombing raids during the Vietnam War, but # could vary. Diesel generators were used to supply electricity in North Vietnam. For American soldiers in the jungles & hills of Vietnam, time there would be boring with nothing happening most of the time with periods of sheer terror of fighting.

    N.S.A. Henry Kissinger negotiated with the North Vietnamese for years until the Jan. 1973 truce. In Dec. 1978, Vietnam invaded neighboring Cambodia, which led to the fall of the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, that ruled Cambodia for 3 years, 8 months & 20 days, thus ending the terror in Cambodia. China subsequently attacked Langson Vietnam in early 1979. A U.N. ceasefire was declared in 1990, between the Vietnam & Cambodia. Pol Pot the dictator of the Khmer Rouge went into hiding in the jungles of Cambodia & died in 1998. During the terror of the Khmer Rouge, people were imprisoned in squalid Cambodian prisons (S21) & sufferend tortures & many were executed by Pol Pot (or Saloth Sar). 1 reason Pol Pot would imprison people was if he believed they supported the Vietnamese. Other reasons were if they're CIA or KGB intelligence suspects.

    The U.S. did do a post Vietnam War mission in May 1975, which involved the U.S.S. Mayaguez, seized by the Khmer Rouge Navy. 44 marines died fighting against the Khmer Rouge on Koh Tang Island. They thought the crew of the Mayaguez was held there, but the Khmer Rouge freed the crewmen, before their arrival. There were also bombing raids on Cambodia in May 1975. While Cambodia & Vietnam disputed Koh Tang Island, it must be reminded that the Khmer Rouge got help from the North Vietnamese during the Vietnam War. The Khmer Rouge & the North Vietnamese were untrustworthy allies & later became enemies. The North Vietnamese didn't trust their Chinese allies during the Vietnam War.

    A factual account of the ending of the Vietnam War would be to say that we withdrew from the war & it's South Vietnam who lost after we left in Jan. 1973, following the Paris Conference which resulted in the truce. Melvin Laird wanted Vietnamization of the Vietnam War, where the U.S. would slowly pull out, leaving the South Vietnamese to defend South Vietnam. If the U.S. had not withdrawn its armed forces from Vietnam, South Vietnam wouldn't have lost the war.
     
  2. The Third Man

    The Third Man Banned

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    Yes I have it and really do not think that much of it. One thing that bugged me is that he called the Viet Cong terrorists in it but never said anything like that against the Americans,he is an American of course. I found the book to be very biased in favour of the American point of view. It covers very little of Vietnamese history and is mostly the story of the wars in Vietnam.
     
  3. lizarddust

    lizarddust Well-Known Member

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    A little discrepancy here. America started bombing Laos in May 1964, three months before the Gulf of Tonkin Incident and 10 months before the commencement of Rolling Thunder. So, the American military were smashing into Laos by way of massive aerial bombardment before the Vietnam War started.

    The bombing of Laos was the precursor onto how wars would be fought in the latter 20th century and 21st century, from the air.
     

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