Closing Allied bases in Germany, sleep-walking to a nuclear-armed German superpower?

A spoof press-release from the peace-loving German military

The government plans to withdraw or draw-down the British army from Germany, closing our bases there.

The British army should keep its remaining bases in Germany. This planned withdrawal and drawdown is short-sighted, reckless and which if all non-German NATO forces do the same would leave Germany free to develop their own German nuclear weapons which will make it a nuclear weapons power in the same league as the UK, France, Russia and China.

What Iran can do in 5 years with the aim to arm itself with nuclear weapons, Germany can do in 5 months or maybe even 5 weeks. Vorsprung durch technik.

NATO should be warning against this foolishness but it is asleep on the job.

Germany can't develop nuclear weapons now, not while they are occupied by "Allied" (now NATO) forces who are an in a position to insist that they can't develop nuclear weapons because we won't let them.

I believe the German constitution says something about Germany being a non-nuclear weapons power and Germany has signed an non-nuclear anti-proliferation treaty.

The Allied powers who occupied Germany after they lost world war 2 to us, insisted Germans were not allowed to act outside of their constitution (or "constitutions", because there were 2 different constitutions while Germany was divided, into East and West)

Having no constitutional remit to do something counts for little unless someone can insist by force of arms that the constitution is respected.

In the past, when Germany wanted to change its constitution against opposition, the German state made temporary agreements with some great powers who could stop them - like the Munich agreement to annexe the Sudetenland part of Czechoslovakia to become part of the German Reich, like the Molatov - Rippenntrop pact to divide Poland, half of it being occupied and ruled by Germany, the other half by the Soviet Union.

However, these pieces of paper were easily shown to be worthless when Germany invaded the whole of Czechoslovakia and Poland later.

The way Germany's neighbours make Germany keep its agreements is we park our tanks on their lawns.

I expect that one of the main reasons the UK wants to withdraw from our German bases is cost. Apparently, since reunification we've had to pay rent for our bases, as have the Americans. So I was told.

Well if it is an unfair rent (and it sounds like it if it is too expensive to afford) maybe Germany are putting the rent up so much because they are trying to evict us?

Anyway, we should be getting our bases rent free since the Allies, well the USA to be specific, gave Germany a huge amount of money via the Marshall fund for German reconstruction.

The Germans owe Britain plenty if we need to offset the rent for our bases in Germany because of the cost in lives and treasure Germany cost Britain by their aggression in Europe which forced us to fight them in 2 world wars.

The non-German NATO countries need to insist on no rent, token rent or, at the most generous, affordable rents.

Keeping our bases in Germany may seem costly when since one raison d'etre for having the bases (The Soviet Union) has disappeared.

That wasn't the only raison d'etre for the bases. It was the 2nd raison d'etre for our bases which we felt comfortable about talking about with our West Germany colleagues. There was always the first raison d'etre for our German bases which was to control the constitution of Germany after world war 2. West Germany controlled by the USA, UK and France, East Germany by the Soviet Union.

The withdrawal of the Soviet Union and the reunification of Germany was conditional on the whole of Germany being in NATO and NATO assuming constitutional over-watch for the whole of Germany.

The Red Army would not have withdrawn from East Germany unless guarantees had been given to prevent Germany becoming an independent nuclear-armed superpower.

So NATO has a responsiblility and NATO should be pointing out that Britain withdrawing bases from Germany is falling down on the job and creating great dangers. Sadly, NATO is asleep on the job.

We clipped the German militaristic eagle's wings and we had our military bases there in Germany to see that their wings stayed clipped.

I've never been to Germany but I don't need to talk to people in Germany today to know that they are people whose minds can be changed because all people's minds can be changed.

Many "nice" Germans were put into German concentration camps for opposing the Nazi regime but most people will conform to the requirements of the state or the occupier, in any country.

 

Your post brings upon shame over the entire British populace...

Reminds of me something so outrageous, that I'm already losing my cool before hand...

Some German guy went auditioning on some of those British talent shows (X Factor, Britain's Got Talent,...) and when he said in his intro that he was from Germany the British crowd (+1000) started booing...

 

My post is not anti-German. It is not a bigoted post. It is not a post to be ashamed of.

I meant no offence but I expect that this is a sensitive issue for many of my European neighbours. We must keep our cool to discuss our differences as neighbours and friends should, to disagree if necessary but without being disagreeable.

 

Ho boy, where do I even start? Here are some reasons why nobody has to fear that Germany will become a nation with nuclear weapons.

1. Anti-military opinions: Ever since the end of WW2 and especially since the end of the Cold War the majority of Germans have been opposed to military armament and interventions in other countries. The military intervention in Afghanistan is the best example. The public has demanded the withdrawal of German troops in Afghanistan for years now. There have been protests with thousands of members against any military intervention, the latest having been the Lybia mission. If the German military were to decide that they wanted nuclear weapons then the public protest would be gigantic and the government would be forced to stop any such plans. And these anti-military sentiments are not limited to the common man but are also supported by several parties, the biggest one being "Die Linke".

2. Pull-out from nuclear power: Not only are there major sentiments against the military but also against the use of nuclear power as a form of electricity. Ever since the tragic accident of Fukushima last year the already major objections against nuclear power have led to the political decision to pull-out from nuclear power. As of 2022 no more nuclear powerplants will be online and providing electricity. Now, if already the non-military usage of nuclear power is opposed and about to come to an end, then do you really believe that a military use of nuclear weapons is going to be tolerated?

3. Experiences from history: The historical events in Germany seem to be the main reason why you think that a nuclear armament of Germany is possible. Well, in my opinion these exact events will prevent any nuclear armament. The end of WW2 led to an almost complete destruction of Germany, almost all major German cities were majorly destroyed, the economy was down for the count and the people had to do their utmost to survive. Then the Cold War happened and Germany was the most affected country. Not only was it split in half, separating many families for over fourty years, but it was also the country most in danger of a nuclear strike. If the Cold War had ever turned hot then Germany would have been the very first country to be invaded. Considering this, do you really believe that the Germans are looking for any more armed conflict?

4. Political situation: The extreme right-wing parties, like the NPD, haven't been able to get a single seat in the Bundestag for the entire existence of the parliament. Even in the recent years when right wing parties in other european countries are obtaining more votes, the German right-wingers are unable to get more than 2% of the overall votes. As for the extreme left-wing parties: they have been slightly more successful than the right-wings, especially ever since the foundation of "Die Linke". However, in the last few federal state elections "Die Linke" has suffered enourmous losses, partly due to the fact that the party is about to destroy itself. To sum it up, the political situation in Germany is very stable and the important parties don't have any interest in starting a nuclear armament.

EU and international relations: Germany is one of the founding members of the EU which in fact had the express goal to prevent any more wars between european nations. Furthermore, Germany has many, many good international relations, especially to countries such as the USA and Israel. In addition, Germany is still the second biggest export nation and a whole lot of jobs depend on exactly this fact. Now if Germany even thinks about a possible nuclear armament many nations will cry out in protest and Germany's economy will start to fail. Do you really think that German politicians will jeopardize the current situation just to think about the possibility of a nuclear armament?

All in all, nobody has to be afraid of a possible nuclear armament of the German forces. Oh, and the way you insinuated that the German society hasn't changed at all in the last 75 years is a little insulting.

 

Brits are just going crazy again on PF.com as they often do. Nothing to worry about.

Besides, UK is famous for their anti-German sentiments -- rest of Europe doesn't feel the same way though...

 

Hello, Peter Dow. I have an interesting news for you:
On May 8th 1945 Germany capitulated. The war is over now. Out. And gone is gone.

 

Thank you for your detailed reply. You are very nice and reasonable and I'm happy to call you my German friend and I am sorry if you feel insulted by my post. It is not my intention to insult you or German society.

Nations never have nuclear weapons; only states can have nuclear weapons. The people, the nation can be peaceful and not want nuclear weapons, but the state can be militaristic, sly and decide to get nuclear weapons regardless of what the nation wants.

It is like the German nation did not want the Nazis but after the Nazis seized the power of the state then it did not matter what the nation wanted because once the Nazis had the power of the state they could control the nation, enslave the nation and get the people to obey the Nazis.

Where is the guarantee that the German state will always respect the rights and the views of the German nation? NATO is that guarantee, or it was, but now it is falling asleep on the job it seems.


The sheep said to the shepherd: "None of us sheep are wolves, and the wolves are few and far away so you, the shepherd, do not need to hang around here with your gun".

 

Very funny. Hahahaha.

Oh yes, I am German and I do not want nuclear weapons. But it seems that wee need them. If you are that donw-to-earth, call the Nato to abolish your nuclear weapons. Look at your post, you can not be a friend of any German and a British military presence in Germany can not prevent Germany from making nukes, if it decides to make some. You say, that Germany must be occupied to prevent it from making another war, but it is not Germany, who is making wars nowadays. Big mouthed, cause Uncle Sam would feed his lapdog again.

 

...



One could say the same of the Brits...

WTF dude?

 

I do try to refrain from insults or even insinuations most of the time because they don't help any discussion at all. I also don't feel offended personally by your post, so don't worry. It just feels a little demeaning that you feel that the German society hasn't changed since the end of WW2. How would you feel if I insinuated that the British still pine after the Empire and want the complete control over the Commonwealth nations?

You make a good point that the wishes of the population and the wishes of the government/military don't always run along the same lines. However, I think you're underestimating the importance and weight the public opinion holds with politicians. The military is ultimately controlled by politicians in the government and parliament. These politicians are, in turn, controlled by the public since they need the voters confidence to actually be in power. So if a vast majority of the population is against nuclear armament and there is no real reason to go through with it anyway, then I believe that the politicians would not go against public opinion. But maybe I'm just naivè, who knows.

As for the possible seizing of a power that works against it's own population: well, there definitely is that chance. We do not know what will happen in the future so a German nuclear armament is not in the realm of possibility, especially if a extremist power were to gain the government. However, this is a scenario that holds true for the every single nation out there. Can you guarantee that the British government won't be seized by anti-European powers with the intent of nuking Germany? Of course you can't. Is it a possible situation? Yes, it is. Is it probable? No, of course not. I don't know what will happen in Germany in twenty, fifty or a hundred years. Therefore, I can't guarantee anything. But I think that the benefit of the doubt should be applied since there are no indications at all that Germany is trying to start a nuclear armament at the moment. So instead of focusing on the, in my opinion, marginal chance that Germany will become a nuclear power, why don't we focus on the task of abolishing nuclear weapons worldwide? Wouldn't it be safest if no nation, be it the USA, Britain, Pakistan or India, had a nuclear arsenal?

If you still feel uneasy about the British forces pulling out of Germany then why don't you spend your next holidays here? Most people speak English well enough to hold at least a simple conversation so just come and talk to different people. There are also a lot of cultural sight worth checking out in Germany if your interested in history at all. And most of them do not, in fact, have anything to do with Nazi-Germany, since German history contains more than the twelve years between 1933 and 1945.

 

What the hell are you talking about?? A neutral Germany was an offer in the 50ies from the Soviet Union, it was a smack in the face of the Soviet Union to have Germany reunified under NATO control. West Germany insisted on the NATO membership of the new reunified Germany, the SU would have gladly accepted a neutral Germany.

In which parallel universe are you British people living in which the SU begged you to protect them from Germany?? Your delusions of grandeur are remarkable, the SU could have easily crushed Germany and the UK combined, it was about their inability to handle the maintenance costs of their military architecture and occupation surely not that they needed you to protect themselves. Lol.

 

I don't feel that. There has been change but maybe not the change that's needed to make a Germany standing on its own two feet a safe bet.

I'd feel that was a inaccurate view.

Please note that I don't feel that "the Germans" or "German society" still pine after a Reich. In fact, I don't believe that German society wanted a Reich in 1933 but that German society was overruled by the Nazis at that time and got a Reich whether it pined for one or not.

OK, then what do the population do about that? How does a population remove a government/military which is defying the wishes of its population? If you don't know now like the German population didn't know in 1933 then that's what's not changed since then.

For democratic politicians or fascist politicians?

But what if the military rigs the elections to put in the fascist politicians it wants, like Hitler? Who is controlling who then?

That's the democratic theory but how do you impose free and fair elections against those that want to rig elections, by control of the media, by arresting opposition politicians, by miscounting the votes?

Yes you are naive. How do you defend the democratic theory, if elections are rigged, if honest politicians and judges are arrested, if the only people left for the police to follow are the fascists?

If the defenders of freedom and democracy let their guard down, yes, there is that chance. So what do the defenders of freedom and democracy do to keep their guard up?

It's not in the realm of possibility now because our British and American army bases are in Germany and we would fight an extremist government, with the help of the moderate Germans.

If however, our bases are withdrawn then there is no guard remaining to fight the extremist government. There is just naive Germans who believe that the extremists "won" the election fair and square because the government TV says so and the German military salutes the extremists and trusts itself with nuclear weapons so German nuclear armament happens.

Some nations are more capable of defending themselves and making sure the state is a nation state rather than a fascist state.

I can guarantee that while I live and I am free. If I am dead or in prison, I cannot guarantee that no. But others could.

My worry is that if our bases from Germany are withdrawn against my advice then later it may be necessary to threaten Germany with our nuclear weapons to deter Germany from obtaining nuclear weapons. If we don't threaten Germany in that way then maybe the Russians will?

The best guarantee that no-one will intend to nuke Germany is to keep our bases there then anyone who threatens Germany also threatens our bases and will have us to answer to.

There is Sod's (or Murphy's) law which states that anything which can go wrong, will go wrong. So if Germany is allowed to gain nuclear weapons, then they will.

Those who disarm nuclear weapons would be vulnerable to those who did not disarm or who said they were disarming but cheated. We need global powers, acting through the United Nations Security Council to have nuclear weapons available to deter those who abuse the power of nuclear weapons.

If I had a German girlfriend who invited me home to visit her parents I might just do that.

 

But the Soviets would not have wanted to accept a neutral Germany armed with its own nuclear weapons, and neither would we.

The parallel universe I live in is the one where Condoleezza Rice negotiated the withdrawal of the Soviet Union from Europe, thus ending the cold war

[video=youtube;CZtLJBwFwOE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZtLJBwFwOE[/video]

and where all grandeur is owed to her who must be obeyed,

[video=youtube;Wroq4oqpshc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wroq4oqpshc[/video]

the light of the north,

[video=youtube;eQD8mVKZV9c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQD8mVKZV9c[/video]

the saviour of mankind and the hope of the world, our beloved Condi.

[video=youtube;ZX0PD8PmvXs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX0PD8PmvXs[/video]

This is a very nice parallel universe to be in and I invite you all to step into this universe from yours.

In particular we Europeans can step into that parallel universe if we can persuade Condoleezza Rice to run for a new office of the elected president of the European Union.

[video=youtube;520H_uHEv5I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=520H_uHEv5I[/video]

Though Condi is being courted to run for Vice-President of the United States of America just now so we Europeans may have lost our chance.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rice-for-president

Condoleezza Rice for President/VP Video Playlist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnKToi09KDc&list=PLC88B108ED71F35D4&feature=plpp_play_all

 

Don't be daft. We are more likely to have nuclear trouble from Pakistan than Germany....SERIOUSLY.

 

Mate - Cameron & co are too busy making Britain as toothless as possible to appease the same people that lost Labour an impossible to lose election.

 

Would you mind elaborating on that? Because I have no idea what change you see as necessary before Germany can "stand on its own two feet".

And you were right because it obviously is an inaccurate view. Just as I think your view of Germany is inaccurate.

Thank you, so I do believe that a major group of Germans did in fact want some kind of Nazi rule in 1933. They just didn't know what exactly that would entail because none of them really read Hitler's "Mein Kampf" or believed he was actually that deranged.

You can always try the national strike. It already worked once in the Weimar Republic in 1920. Twelve million Germans managed to stop the Kapp-revolt from succeeding. If you'd like something a little more radical than there is the assassination attempt. It was just luck that Hitler managed to survive every single assassination attempt thrown at him and there were quite a lot. And as an absolute last resort there is always the armed civil war, although I sincerely hope that this won't ever happen.

Public opinion is more important to democratic politicians than to facist ones, of course. However, right now the governmet and parliament is made up of democratic politicians and not facist ones. And even facist politicians need at least a modicum of public support because they are otherwise embroiled in civil war.

A completely hypothetical scenario in the current situation. Not even Hitler's rise to power was rigged by the military but democratic. And the 'new' German election proceedings are pretty safe as far as manipulations are concerned in my opinion. I'm going to assume you have some understanding how the German election proceedings work and just believe them to be lacking.

None of that is being done in Germany right now nor is such a scenario likely to happen any time soon. Of course you're free to speculate about such "What if"-scenarios all you like but I have to admit I find them redundant at this point of time since they don't reflect the current reality.

Like I said before, the national strike is a possibility to stop facists. Furthermore, the police are sworn to defend the democracy in Germany, in fact teachers have to swear to defend the democracy, so I highly doubt that they would just follow a facist regime like that. And better to be naive than to be paranoid and live in a world where everybody is out to get me, which I don't believe to be true.

The defenders of democracy are not letting their guard down in Germany. Not at all. Why else would ten thousand people go to a peaceful counter demonstration whenever a few hundred Neo-Nazis go on a demonstration?

Because such a, hypothetical, facist government wouldn't be aware of exactly that and try to neutralize the British and American army bases at the first opportunity that presented itself. You don't necessarily need military bases to fight a facist government in a country. The NATO didn't have any military bases in Lybia as far as I know.

Seeing as their is a tremendous anti-military and anti-nuclear movement going on in Germany I don't believe that any of this would happen. Were right in the middle of a completely hypothetical scenario that doesn't take the current political and social structure of Germany into account and therefore isn't feasible in my opinion.

So Germany is not one of those states? What do you base this opinion on?

Great, so can I. Does that reassure you? If not, why should it reassure me?

I'm going to assume that neither one of us can directly influence this decision to withdraw from Germany. I guess you could have a high military or governmental position but I'm going to assume you're just a regular citizen like me. Therefore, we will just have to see what path history is going to take and whoever was right get's to say "I told you so".

Since Germany is part of the NATO you'd have to reply to threats to Germany either way. The NATO members have sworn to help each other in the event of an attack. This doesn't depend on military bases in any particular country.

First if all, I don't believe in Murphy's law since it's way to pessimistic in my opinion. And I still stand by my belief that the BRD has never stated the desire to own nuclear weapons.

If we had a stronger UN than we wouldn't need global powers, in my opinion. Nevermind the fact, that the current global powers are always going to stay global powers. The BRICS-nations are gaining a lot of power in the recent years.

Why do you need a German girlfriend to visit Germany? I've visited Great Britain several times without needing someone to push me to do so, simply because I like Great Britain and think it's a country that has a lot of sights worth seeing. The same is true for Germany.

 

Think we're just hacked off because they lost the war and won the peace!

 

We often say the bolded bit about Peter...no, make that we always say that about Peter..but aren't usually as polite about it!

 

Well this is very worrying indeed. There's apparently no audible or visible opposition to the principle of withdrawing the British army from Germany coming from the UK establishment that I can hear anywhere, not from Her Majesty's opposition from the mouth of Jim Murphy, Shadow Secretary of State for Defence, not from the BBC's defence correspondents, not even from any of the independent defence policy organisations.

It looks like the British lion is sleeping walking to a German nuclear-weapons military power which will finally allow Germany to do to London what they failed to do in the Blitz and get us back for Dresden and more given the increased destructive capacity of modern hydrogen nuclear weapons. There will be nothing remaining of London after the Wehrmacht has finished with it.

[video=youtube;2X-pHUrAAeY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X-pHUrAAeY[/video]

Goodbye London. We loved you, we tried to warn you, but you didn't listen.

Oh and who takes statements from Germany at face value?

Germany has no desire for nucear weapons like Germany had no desire for the rest of Czechoslovia, Poland, France, Russia and a 3rd Reich?

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Those of us, a declining few admittedly, who have not forgotten the warning from history, do not take assurances from German Chancellors that they have no desire for military conquest.

This idiot UK PM Chamberlain was as reckless as PM Cameron and his Secetary of Defence Hammond and the Labour opposition are reckless in withdrawing the British army from Germany.

[video=youtube;FO725Hbzfls]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO725Hbzfls[/video]

 

I am British and I find the whole tone of this thread absurd.

My Problem with Germany is that it is TOO pacificist. Germany is an entirely responsible nation. What would it have to gain from military conquest? Just reunifying Germany caused enough financial woes. Why would they want to invade somewhere ele and gain a population that caused endless trouble.

It makes no sense. Germany doesn't want to expand, makes no territorial demands even on places like Kallingrad which was stolen from them by the USSR.

There is no need for a British presence anymore. Russia is not a threat. Germany is pathetically pacifist.

 

I asked Peter already in which parallel universe he is living. You underestimate the time gap between since when Peter's political conscious stagnated and now. You wanna tell him the Cold War is over, he did not even recognize that it startet in the late 40ies. He thinks the Bristish troops were there to protect Russia from Germany. No joke, he wrote it here. He did not realize that that there was a Soviet Union which was a superpower which could have easily crushed all Western European armies with its allies. He really thinks the Soviet Union needed the support of the British Army to be able to defend themselves against a German attack (I think he does not know that East Germany was pro Russian and would have supported the SU against the Western European states). I dont know what he thinks of the strenght of the Red Army in comparison to the British Army, Most propably his political opinions were built in times of the Empire when Britain ruled the world and did not change since then.

- - - Updated - - -

I asked Peter already in which parallel universe he is living. You underestimate the time gap between since when Peter's political conscious stagnated and now. You wanna tell him the Cold War is over, he did not even recognize that it startet in the late 40ies. He thinks the Bristish troops were there to protect Russia from Germany. No joke, he wrote it here. He did not realize that that there was a Soviet Union which was a superpower which could have easily crushed all Western European armies with its allies. He really thinks the Soviet Union needed the support of the British Army to be able to defend themselves against a German attack (I think he does not know that East Germany was pro Russian and would have supported the SU against the Western European states). I dont know what he thinks of the strenght of the Red Army in comparison to the British Army, Most propably his political opinions were built in times of the Empire when Britain ruled the world and did not change since then.

 

Even at the height of the Soviet Unions power in 1975 they would not have been able to Win a war against the Nato Allies. Interdiction and soviet logistic incompetence would have lead to a massed offensive grinding to a halt after 3-5 days. The BAOR would probably have been smashed beyond recognition but Wehrmacht infantry units would be fighting fierce rearguard actions and disrupting WP unit cohesion.

Mutiny would be very likely by trrops from Poland, Hungary and Czechoslovakia and perhaps more so by East German troops.

After 10 days massed US forces would be arriving to drive back Soviet positions,

 

Speculation and it was not my point to make that the SU would have been victorious over NATO forces. I was referring to a point he made that British troops were in Germany to protect Russia from Germany. Hopelessly ridiculous, the West German army would have been able to protect West Germany from Soviet and pact forces. At least not alone, that is more than sure.

He thinks British troops were there to protect Russia from the German army, which implies the army would have even been able to invade Russia and that Russia was able only because of British troops to be safe from a German attack. Thats unbelievable stupid, he obviously did not even hear of the Cold War.

 

that is ,of course, nonsense

 

The US should close all its bases in Germany, the only reason we are there is to help their economy. We could save a bundle closing those bases and bringing our troops home.
I have no fear of Germany at the point nuking the rest of europe either