Why do atheists care about hell?

You seem to be getting awfully defensive.

My 'moral code' is based on empathy, as I said. I don't ever feel the need to shove it down anyone's throat. Except I guess I would like to prevent people from abusing animals. Is that what kind of 'shoving' you're talking about? I suppose yes, then.

I suppose protecting animals from cruelty is regarded by many to be 'shoving beliefs down throats'. Many people actually think that animals were put here solely for our use and don't have souls therefore we can do anything we want to them. *cough*

I'm not sure what point you're trying to get across from this though honestly. Maybe because it's 2:58 AM and I'm quite tired.

 

I personally think that 'curious' would be a better term. Curious about the manner in which you think.

There you go... you have identified yourself as an animal rights activist. Actually there is nothing wrong with being an animal rights activist, because such an activity is hinted at in the book of Genesis. God gave us dominion over all the animals of the earth, but nowhere is it suggested that we have the right to abuse those animals. Are you now promoting the notion that you might be trying to identify as a Theist because of your use of Bible teachings?

How many people are doing those things? Seemingly you are attempting to identify as a Theist, because now you are seemingly advocating the existence of a 'soul'. Are you trying to identify as a Theist?

As I said before... just curious about your manner of thinking. Being that you are tired and it is obviously past your bedtime, I will close for now by saying that it is 5:32 AM where I am at (and this is about 1/2 hour past your last post).

 

Constitutionally animals have no rights. So you can yell and scream or do whatever to get your point across about cruelty to animals, but IF you start enacting laws on their behalf, then you are doing what religions are NOT allowed to do.

 

Well now that is a new rendition on what Theists can and cannot do with regard to the enactment of laws that forbid those non-theists to do what they desire. Thanks for that support in showing that theists and religion cannot necessarily get laws enacted.

 

Enacting those laws has absolutely nothing to do with the 1st amendment, so I'm not sure how this relates to what people try to do with religion.

 

Isn't cruelty to animals illegal in the US?
Could you guys beat your dog to death and then grill it on your lawn?

 

Animal cruelty to certain animals is illegal.

Fish (and other cold blooded animals), birds, rats, mice, and rabbits are exempt from animal cruelty laws. As are pretty much animal used for animal testing.

 

Can I not have morals that are also described in The Bible without being a Theist?

 

As AKR said, certain animals. Though animal cruelty is actually rampant here, behind closed doors.

This is graphic, and you have been warned, so please don't get mad at me for posting this. Most of this is standard practice in factory farms in the U.S. And I have seen hundreds of undercover investigations that document further cruelty as shown that is not punished by law until animal rights organizations go undercover to film it (which by the way is now illegal in Iowa and several other states due to the power of big ag), so it is without a doubt widespread cruelty.
[video=youtube;THIODWTqx5E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THIODWTqx5E[/video]

This is the kind of animal cruelty I would like to enforce laws against. (AKA shoving my beliefs down others throats)

 

Still having trouble understanding the concept of speaking hypothetically, I see.

 

"To Hell and Back Again" - An evil hobbit's tale

 

Not from my perspective. Irony is sweet.

 

I don't understand your logic behind that perspective. Do you really think that humans without religion don't form their own morals?

I didn't even know until more recently that The Bible taught people not to be cruel to animals. It's kind of something I came up with myself because I love animals and I realize they have feelings and I'm not a (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)bag.

My belief is that humans wrote The Bible based on the morals they already had. It's like the story of Santa Claus. "You only get presents if you're good." "You only go to heaven if you follow these rules." It's a means to control people. Which is both good and bad.

 

Can you provide more insight into this perspective? I believe there is no god, but some of Jesus' teachings happen to match my personal ethical stance. Why do you think that having such an ethical stance is incompatible with being an atheist?

 

Being a raised lutheran we were told hell is eternal (*)(*)(*)(*)ation of torment and pain and suffering.
Not a practicing lutheran at the moment, I don't believe hell is such a place.
Lutherans(most still do), RC, certainly still do.

But this all knowing, all loving, God, would he send 70-90% of his creation to live in such a place for all of eternity?

 

No. My personal perspective is nothing more than opinion and like all other opinions is not proof of anything.

Then you have cherry picked His teachings and are only using those that seem to be more favorable to making you feel good?

Because you do not accept all of the teachings of Jesus, the most formidable being the teaching that He is the Son of God. If you do not believe in God, then you do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and are therefore implying that the teachings of Jesus is a lie, else you believe in God. If Jesus has told even one lie, then He is a liar and none of His teachings are worthy of consideration. Now, can you prove that Jesus has told a lie?

 

obviously one need not be a Muslim, Christian, Jew, ect.. to have morals, in fact we even see some religious people lacking morals, thus showing being religious does not ones morals make

people without morals though often fall for this religion or that to fill the void, sadly these people often feel killing in the name of religion is ok


.

 

Your faith is your own. I'm talking about your religion.

Who created Satan?

God

So Satan has no affect on humanity? God created me and all that makes up my experience on this planet with the knowledge of exactly how it would turn out. Of course you could say this isn't true as long as God is not infallible nor all knowing.

The underlying message in this quote is nothing more than proof that belief will show you whatever you want to see.

Atheism is the effect of religions cause.

BTW as I was responding in regards to the overwhelming majority of your posts on this forum your reponse is very helpful to my point.

 

Well, that's your first mistake, assuming there is logic behind the perspective.

 

I didn't ask for proof though. I am interested in your perspective, which by its nature is bound to be subjective.

Cherry picking implies that I have deliberately sought out some of his teachings. That is not the case. It just so happens, by nothing more than coincidence, that some of his ethical positions happen to match my own.

Sorry, that's flat wrong. Every single human being in the history of history has told at least one lie - therefore, by your logic, nothing that's ever been said by anyone is worthy of consideration. That's sheer nonsense.

 

Atheism and religion are both fools games. No one knows for sure.Live and let live.

 

You're catching on.

 

Well of course they can form their own morals and moral codes without the aid of religion. However, when they do, they have something man-made to act as their moral guideline. Man-made moral codes can be as numerous as their are people on the planet.... subsequently they are subjective and mean nothing. When you see people desiring to activate either a private moral code or one belonging to a government or fraternity or other type of social gathering, they are doing what makes them feel good. However, if you are subscribing to a moral code which is a part of a religion which worships a god, then you are subscribing to the moral code of that god.

Perhaps you should spend more time in studying the Bible then before you start blindly attacking the Bible on various subjects. Giving a literal interpretation to the following verse, shows that being kind to animals is beneficial:
"King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?"

Yes, it can be viewed as a means of 'controlling people', which is a pretty common view from atheists and non-theists. Yes! It is both good and bad. Unfortunately for some they view it as a controlling factor, but for others, it is viewed as a blessing and a distinctive separation of the two lots of people. As for the opinion part... well, we all have opinions.

 

On a side note btw... is Jesus being the son of God actually one of Jesus' teachings? I don't think he ever specifically says that he is the son of god, and when he refers to his 'father' is he really doing anything different from the millions who speak the lord's prayer in the morning?

 

Was the prayer found here just another prayer such as one that would be said by the millions who recite the Lords Prayer? Compare the two prayers: first the Lords Prayer:
"1 One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.” 2 He said to them, “When you pray, say: “‘Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come. 3 Give us each day our daily bread. 4 Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us. And lead us not into temptation.’ "

Now a very special prayer:
"17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said,
Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh,
that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee
the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth:
I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

17:5 And now, O Father,
glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world:
thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them,
and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

17:9 I pray for them:
I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee.
Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may
be one, as we are.

17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name:
those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition;
that the scripture might be fulfilled.

17:13 And now come I to thee;
and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

17:14 I have given them thy word;
and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world,
but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

17:21 That they all may be one;
as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:
that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them;
that they may be one, even as we are one:

17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one;
and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am;
that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me:
for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee:
but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it:
that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.



Study more... it might help you to understand.