War on Drugs has failed

Drug laws are making us broke and gives power to Mexican cartels . I support legalizing everything , with a compromise of a 50 dollar max fine for any drug possession with no record or jail . Problem is our government would find something else to waste the saved money on .

 

the war on drugs is a failure

"5 Years After: Portugal's Drug Decriminalization Policy Shows Positive Results" April 7, 2009

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=portugal-drug-decriminalization

ending prohibition is the way to go...

"Ten Years After Decriminalization, Drug Abuse Down by Half in Portugal"

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkai...lization-drug-abuse-down-by-half-in-portugal/

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I never implied we should spend more on enforcement? I simply said we do not properly fund the laws that we create. In another post I said no one should be in jail for possession or use of drugs unless it causes damages, injuries or death to others. Instead of carte-blanche legalizing drugs maybe just change the current laws, and penalties to make more sense.

How do you enforce the use of drugs in terms of personal liability? With alcohol we can measure a person's blood alcohol levels; how will we do this with drugs?

If we cared about the 35K who die each year in traffic accidents we could offer solutions to improve this. Speeding does kill most of them because not too many people die in traffic accidents when traveling 15-30mph. If we changed the speed limit to 40mph and enforced this 20K people will not get killed each year. But we can't possibly tolerate 40mph so 20K people must lose their lives. It's just a matter of priorities.

I believe if you can find the prison or jail statistics for simple possession you will find very few are in jail. Most all of them have associated crimes plus the drug charges which forces incarceration. Should someone be jailed for intent to sell drugs...to minors or adults? Do you believe legalizing drugs will change your data above?

 

How will you create rules for drug use when drug use cannot be measured?

Alcohol use is legal, it can be measured in the field, and when people cause damage, injury and/or death from alcohol use, they are penalized. The same must apply for drug use if it was ever legalized.

There are no drugs I know of which have ALWAYS been OK?? There is a reason why certain substances are termed 'drugs' and this is because they are not okay for general consumption without side effects ranging from very little to death. Aspirins are not ALWAYS OK depending on how they are consumed and what other medical problems an individual might have.

Legalization will not destroy the black markets. As long as there is demand for drugs, current and new drugs, and there are profits to be made, IMO there will be black markets. For example, if drugs are legal, then this means I can buy them from Mexico, pay no taxes, and distribute and sell them in the USA. Or do you believe legalization of drugs means they MUST be manufactured in the USA...as if this could ever be enforced.

There are illegal alcohol and cigarettes entering the US. Illegal sale of cigarettes is a fast growing market! Drugs, weapons, alcohol, cigarettes, create a black market in the US. Yes I understand a black market? Whenever there is demand of something, in which government plays a role by regulating availability and/or taxation, this creates back-channels for products, and these products are provided by a black market.

No matter...at least with the Obama administration, there is no way possible they will consider legalization of drugs...

 

The War on the War on Drugs seems to be failing too... There is simply no incentive for the government to give up the vast amounts of power they receive by waging a war on drugs.

 

That has nothing to do with the legal status of cigarettes or alcohol. It has to do with the ridiculous amount of taxation. In NYC, a pack of cigs in >$13, and that was 2 years ago when I left, it wouldn't surprise me to learn it's even higher now. In comparison, in Florida they're $5 bucks and change. Now ignoring for a moment that the cost of manufacturer plus a reasonable profit margin means the free market price of a pack of cigs is <$3, I could buy Florida cigs, take them to NY, mark them up 100%, and sell them faster than I could stock them, ignoring the fact that doing so is illegal.

And that's the fundamental problem. Free markets are illegal. That's a problem.

 

Why can't they just be penalized for causing damage, injury, or death? What difference does it make if they were drunk or stoned?

And, again, how does this alleged fact of yours then translate into a justification for putting millions of people into cages, ruining their lives, and destroying the civil liberties of everyone else? Yeah, a few bad things are going to happen. Millions of people, right now, are suffering though they have done nothing to harm anyone else. That's what you are advocating for: punishing countless innocent individuals so you can eliminate a little bit of risk from only one element of risk that exists in society.

 

Why does our federal Congress believe we need a generation long War on Drugs instead of better roads and aqueducts?

 

Actually some can be tested for. THC can be measured in nanograms per ML. Other tests are possible for other drugs with a little research and testing. Colorado is trying to pass a bill that considers 5 nanograms of THC per milliliter. Standard drug tests do not test for TCH because it leaves the body within hours, they test for the enzimes that are left afterwards.

A policeman is trained to test and recognize impaired driving. You can get a ticket for driving impaired from lack of sleep or prescription drugs among other things without testing. An impaired driver is an impaired driver regardless of the reason for impairment. Is it perfect? No, but there is also not testing being done right now for impairment other than alcohol.

Nothing that can be consumed is ALWAYS OK when you look at it that way. What I was referring to was drugs that are demonized way more than they should be. In general, smoking marijuana is not bad. It is a plant that is consumed in a form that is totally natural. It is like a cigarette without the tons and tons of chemicals added. Yes, if a person has ailments that are affected by smoking, it can be bad. Yes, if someone sits around and smokes non stop all day, it is going to have long term consequences. Marijuana is far less toxic, addictive, and destructive than alcohol or cigarettes. Remember, marijuana is a schedule 1 drug...according to our laws, no drug is more dangerous, not coke, not meth, not heroin. Its a plant flower for christ sake.

How many people do you think buy bootleg cigarettes from outside the US? Drugs are expensive because of everything except the actual cost of manufacturing. How could a drug dealer selling Mexican weed hope to compete with marijuana legally grown here? If it is legal and companies begin to cultivate it, the price would drop dramatically which takes the huge profits away from the 20 different dealers that touch it along the way. How many people buy alcohol on the black market? not many, the black market is driven by illegal items, not legal ones.

Really? Illegal cigarettes is a fast growing market? I know some people who buy cigarettes across state borders to pay less tax but that is not what black market is about. We have a 100% black market for drugs now, legalization, taxation, regulation, and legal manufacturing would allow for a less expensive, better, safer, and safer to access product. Who in their right mind would buy Mexican ditch weed from a drug dealer for more money than they can buy top quality medical marijuana grown here for less?

It wont come from any administration, it will come from congress or more than likely from states using their states rights to regulate drugs and the feds realizing that they are not in the position to handle enforcement by themselves. I do not realistically expect to ever see us legalize all drugs. We are far to entrenched and invested in this losing war. We will gradually see legislation relaxing and decriminalizing some drugs such as marijuana. Once marijuana is taken off the schedule 1 list we will then be able to see the real benefits of it. Research and testing will become legal and I firmly believe we will find positive results in treatment for some ailments. I am not a "Marijuana cures everything" fanatic but I do believe it has many medicinal properties, not to mention it has a nice smooth relaxing buzz that is far better than alcohol. Unfortunately, it is illegal and I have a job that has testing so I am stuck with alcohol as my drug of choice.

 

When someone can be sent to jail, have to go through a trial, lose their job, break up their family, and someday return from jail to find the only job available to them is selling drugs, we need to do a little more than adjust a few laws. We need a serious study and real life test. Legalize marijuana and heroin. Have "drug stores" where legal drugs can be purchased and see where we are 10 years from now. Spend taxes from sales and a portion of the drug war dollars on treatment for heroin addicts, help them get off the streets and clean. I would bet that we would be in a much better position.

How do we do it now? How would it be different? And test can be used for impairment on some drugs and others probably if we took the time to develop them.

If someone dies in a car accident going 70MPH in a 70 zone, they were not killed because they were speeding. They were killed because they were traveling in a car. There is no completely safe way to travel. People die from falling off their bicycles. I do not need a nanny limiting my speed to 40MPH. Driving is a choice, anyone who does knows they are risking theirs and their passengers lives.

Of course many have related crimes. My son has his medical marijuana card. I removed all firearms from my household when he got it because if he grows a couple plants in the house and their is a gun anywhere on the property, he risks possession of a firearm while committing a felony charges. Some are caught stealing to support their habit and have drugs on them, this becomes a multiple offense case. When a person finds themselves in an addiction, there is almost nowhere to go for help unless you or your family has a nice little pile of money. Many dive deeper into their addiction because they have no way out and continue their habits which just digs the whole deeper. These people are not criminals, they are addicts doing criminal things to try and survive in their world. Lets help these people instead of sweeping them under the rug.

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Because the profits are higher in the war on drugs than in road building and the lobbyists pay better.

 

You must be illiterate. Decriminalization takes profits away from criminals and enhances communities. You must be slow.

 

Does that help the debate?

 

I never implied putting people in cages?? In fact on several posts now I have clearly stated that people should not be in jail for possession or recreational use. I only say that people must be held responsible for their actions.

You are focused on government managing our lives but I said people and schools and government will need to tell the public that whatever now legal drugs are okay for consumption. Will there be government guidelines saying how much drugs can be consumed?

You believe people should be allowed to consume hard drugs in public and I do not...this is a simple disagreement...

 

If drugs were ever made legal, the only way this will happen is with government regulations and taxation! Both of these will drive up the costs to the consumer. What no one knows is how the price might lower due to increased supply versus how the price might increase due to government regulations and taxation. IMO government will never legalize drugs and even if they did they would do the same thing they do with alcohol and cigarettes...tax the crap out of them...

 

Well...I guess it's like killing someone...do you only want to look at the death of a person or do you want to penalize the method of killing that person; choked to death, stabbed to death, beaten to death, shot to death, raped to death, etc.? If a person is not paying attention and causes an accident with damages, injury or death, is this the same as a person who is drunk and chooses to drive? Or has done drugs and chooses to drive?

One of the caveats that comes with legalizing substances like alcohol or drugs is go ahead and use them but do not allow their use to cause damage, injury, or death to others. When a person knowingly violates this caveat...the penalties are going to be more severe.

You are making a million assumptions and exaggerating the facts about people in jail for simple possession or recreational use. I continue to say no one should be in jail for possession or recreational use...

 

It is unlikely there can be one field test in order to determine the levels of myriad drugs in one's system. This also must be reviewed against prescription drugs and their reactions when consuming hard drugs. A non-invasive alcohol breathalyzer test is one thing, but if hard drug testing requires a blood test this is a whole other can of worms!

A police person can stop someone for erratic driving and might even ticket them for this or reckless driving...no matter why they are driving erratic. But the penalty will surely be more severe if the officer can prove they are drunk or under the influence of drugs.

Many many years ago when a young kid I tried smoking pot a few times and with me I would be happy but felt like I blanked out for some unknown period of time...I could be talking, then blank out, then connect again some seconds later. IMHO if I blanked out while I was driving, this would be very problematic! Please do not tell me that pot or other drugs are too demonized.

Let me ask you this; how many people who buy cigarettes know for sure those cigarettes are not illegal?

How do you know what the cost effects might be of government regulation and taxation? Once again, the government will never legalize these drugs but even if they do they will regulate and tax the crap out of them; this increases the prices and IMO keeps the illegal drug trade involved.

You ask 'who would buy Mexican ditch weed'?? Duh...98% of consumers today buy Mexican ditch weed!

When States violate federal laws, the federal government can step in and arrest people, confiscate their personal assets, etc. So States cannot do anything they wish...

 

How is any of this different than now? How do we determine a driver is impaired?

You would be in a very small minority. People do not usually black out or pass out when smoking marijuana, you must be thinking about alcohol. Why would you be driving while high on any drug? Do you honestly believe that marijuana is a more damaging or dangerous drug than opium or cocaine? Is it as bad as heroin or meth? Comparing a non altered plant flower to synthetic drugs or drugs that are refined or manufactured using chemicals is demonizing it. No one has ever died from consuming too much marijuana. Other than the long term effect of inhaling burning plant material, what makes marijuana bad for you?

Really? Do you think there are knock off Marlboro's floating around in your local gas station? They may be illegal if someone transports them across state lines to avoid a higher tax but that does not make them "black market".

Marijuana prices are not where they are because of production costs. They are there because of the profits taken by the dealers along the way. Compare prices in states with medical marijuana laws to those with strict enforcement. You can buy top quality organically grown marijuana in Michigan cheaper than you can buy mid grade Mexican weed in other states. If it was legalized and companies could grow it commercially, the cost would be a small fraction of what it is now allowing for heavy taxation and still being cheaper and far safer. Sorta like alcohol, cigarettes, and many other products we buy. You know you can make potato chips cheaper than buying a bag but it takes time and doesnt taste as good most of the time, how many people buy vs make their potato chips?

HaHA! 98% of Mexicans probably dont smoke Mexican ditch weed. Legalization even when just on the medical side eliminates the need for it. Try finding cheap Mexican weed in Michigan or Colorado now that medical is legalized at the state level, it isnt there.

Who said states need to break federal laws? States can leave enforcement of federal laws to the federal government. How many DEA agents do you think exist? The federal government is facing this type of problem in some states already. Many counties and local police forces have instructed their officers to leave people complying with the state laws alone. If the federal government wants to keep laws on the books that the states do not like, then they can enforce those laws themselves.

It is obvious that I could never convince you to look at things differently. You have bought into the propaganda that has been fed to us all for many years. I have know people who were addicted to drugs, people who have died using drugs, and people who are currently using drugs. I am not a drug advocate and use no drugs other than alcohol and prescription drugs as directed when they are prescribed to me. What no one wants to see is that prohibition does not save lives, it ruins them. It does not make drugs hard to get, it makes them expensive and funds gangs, cartels, and terrorists. It does not help addicts get help, it punishes them. It has failed, other countries have tried legalization and seen good results. It is time we look at other options rather than spending billions of dollars a year to be a nanny state. Lets create revenue from drugs rather than spend money punishing people, lets take the demand for marijuana away from the Mexican cartels and give it to farmers who pay taxes or companies that can create a far superior and safer product for a fraction of the cost. Lets focus on actually helping those addicted who want help rather than imprisoning them. I get it, many drugs are destructive, but like many things in life, it is how they are consumed that makes them bad. McDonalds kills more people with their products than a heroin dealer does. Big Pharma's products kill more people every year than all of the other drugs in this country combined. At least research and educate yourself about the possible positives from legalization rather than just fearing it.

 

It is one of the first steps we will take but I am not a fan of decriminalization rather than legalization. Decriminalization does not address what the biggest problems with drugs are. I do not advocate for legalization because I want it to be easy to buy drugs for everyone, I want to see legalization take the criminals out of the drugs and eliminate as much as possible the need for drugs to be smuggled into the US. Decriminalization of possession does not allow for legal production, transportation, or sale of them, this would still be done by gangs and cartels.

They cant now and wouldnt be able to after legalization so it is no different. I would bet that if we were to legalize that we could come up with ways to test just like we have for alcohol.

I do not ignore it, I think that it is a risk we all knowingly take by driving everyday. If you do not want to go over 40MPH you can just travel on local roads. If we made laws to save as many lives as possible it would be impossible to live.

No one can care for an addict unless they want help. You can enable them but that is not caring for them. The government pretty much ignores them now. We need to spend our money treating them rather than locking them in a cage and making them felons for the rest of their lives. Have you ever tried helping a friend or relative get help for addiction before? I have, and unless you have a ton of money it is nearly impossible. We dont hesitate to spend thousands of dollars a year to lock them up, but try to get a 30 day in-patient program for someone. They have to fake suicidal thoughts to even be admitted to the psych ward to try and get help.

I agree that we ignore it and as a society we are failing. Our government is broke partly because we spend billions to punish these people, why not spend even a small fraction of that to help them instead? If we cant afford to help them, we cant afford helicopters and swat teams to go out in the mountains to cut down a plant.
I think we agree on what the problem is for the most part and would both like to see these problems addressed. Where we differ is in what we see as the right direction to take in order to improve things. When I get into conversations like these I just ask that the other person put their personal feelings about drugs aside and really look at other ideas rather than our current system, watch some documentaries and have an open mind, read studies about other countries that have tried other ways. When it comes to marijuana, I take a little more of a hard stance. Talk to people who use it for medical reasons, watch tv shows and documentaries about it, look at some of the limited studies on medicinal benefits, if after doing that people still think it is an evil dangerous drug, then I write them off as a lost cause. We will all look back in the coming years and shake our heads when we realize what this plant can actually do for so many ailments, and laugh about the demonetization we all bought into. Talk to any cancer patient that has used it to control nausea and that should be reason enough to advocate for at least medical marijuana.

 

The delegated power to Prohibit forms of Commerce among the several States was repealed as a bad idea in modern times; why repeat historical mistakes while claiming we are not really like that, afterward?

 

I don't see schools and government telling the public that alcohol is ok for consumption, except in a few cases. There might be guidelines on what are considered overdosages. If not, I'm sure some private groups will publish those materials. Today, it's hard to say how much is "too much" because street drugs are often cut with substances that could be benign, or poisonous, and the percentage of the cut varies constantly.

Uh, I never said that they should "be allowed" to consume hard drugs in public. I think this is a matter for individual jurisdictions, like towns, villages and cities, to decide for themselves what is a public nuisance and what is not. It's a community matter; not a state or federal matter.

 

Do you ignore the FACT that if all driving other than for official government business and the movement of commerce were banned and every other transport purpose relegated to public options, many more thousands of people would not be killed in traffic accidents? It really is about priority. The problem with the argument that the government has a moral imperative to eliminate risk is that there are so many areas of risk that are simply ignored. It's risky to drive and the fact is, in most cases, driving isn't necessary, it's just highly convenient and greatly enhances the daily lives of those who drive. Is that an objective reason to allow the risk? Some people deem drugs to enhance their lives in one way or another, so why is it right to ban what they see as enhancement, but not ban driving that others see as enhancement?

 

Our federal Congress is only delegated the power to regulate Commerce (well) among the several States.