There's been a lot of attacks on "spirituality" lately. There is obviously a great deal of misunderstanding about the difference between the two and what it means to be spiritual. Religion is usually about organizations, internal government, doctrine, rules and a guide that tells the followers of a religion why they are doing the God thing right and everyone else is doing it wrong. Traditional Catholics and Conservative or Evangelical Christians make it very clear, they all have the special hotline to God and He only likes them and hates everyone else SO much, He will keep them alive forever so they can be tortured in the most loving way possible. Muslims are sure Jews & Christians have it wrong but at least they make very clear that if they are devout, both are to be respected and revered (apparently, revering involves explosives) and have their place with Allah in paradise. The rest get that loving torture thing. Religions often get involved in politics, and seeks power and prestige. In the USA we have tons of religious Political Action Committees. In Iran, the imams actually rule the country and so on. Religion commonly involves the concept that you need someone else to tell you what to believe, what is right or wrong etc... A Jewish rabbi, the Pope or Priest, Ted Haggard the great evangelical leader (except for the meth and gay sex part) or some pastor will do nicely. All these people know God better than you do and certainly better than anyone disagreeing in anyway, with their interpretation of what God thinks is cool. So there's that whole "We're part of an exclusive club which separates us from the rest of you bastards!" thing going on. Of course, it's usually phrased differently. As people are good-hearted, most religions will be very concerned about converting people who aren't as right as they are about God, thereby saving them from themselves and that loving eternal torture thing. Religion usually personifies the All-Knowing, as a petty, jealous, angry sadist. We believe that if you're God, you're pretty secure with yourself. It's not like those better looking, more popular gods are a threat to whether you'll be voted prom-king. If you're God, you probably have control of your emotions (anger is the loss of control due to things not going the way one wants). And if God is All Loving, He's probably not also sadistic. Please note, I did not say or intend to mean 100% of the time as there are always exceptions. Spirituality is different in a few ways. A Christian, Catholic, Muslim or Jew can be spiritual but not religious. This means they believe in or follow the principles of a religion BUT: We are less concerned with the organization formed around a religion (i.e. church) as they are about the philosophy, guidance or core message offered by the Messenger. We don't necessarily subscribe to what a particular group, doctrine or leader says, if it doesn't feel right in their heart. So they may have the gall to believe that God will like them even if they don't take a bath with a minister, have crackers and wine in church, get on a rug five times a day or whatever. We love to have intelligent and civil discussions about our spiritual beliefs but tend to believe in personal responsibility when it comes to those beliefs and morality in general. We know there are just oodles of people out there who are actually good people - and they might have differing beliefs, sexual orientations and so on. Imagine that! We don't tell someone they "aren't really a Christian", Muslim, Buddhist or even "Christian enough" if they disagree with us on stuff. This is mainly because most of us haven't sat down for a nice cup of tea with God and gotten the inside scoop on who is what, from the Big G. We find it even more absurd when people of one religion (or none) try to tell others of a differing religion, what they are supposed to believe if they follow that religion. We would never tell a Muslim they aren't "Muslim enough" because they like to have a beer once in a while (which btw, I have Muslim friends who do just that - guess what? They're Muslim). Another example is that we would never tell someone they aren't "Christian enough" if they think gays should be able to marry (because you know, a loving monogamous relationship is such a bad thing!). And so on. We don't believe Christians, Catholics, Muslims, Buddhists, Zoroastrianists, Jews or atheists are doing the God Thing wrong. If there is an All-Powerful-All-Knowing-Force in the universe, then It knows and understands that different people are going to have different beliefs. Cultural factors, upbringing, events and circumstances always shape the beliefs of people. Spiritual people know that if they are smart enough to understand this, then so is God. If we can understand, love and accept someone who is gay, Muslim, atheist or whatever, then God probably can too. Otherwise, we would be more understanding and loving than God, which strikes us as absurd. We don't believe an All Loving God would keep the majority of His creations alive forever, so that he can torture them. That's just ridiculous to us. While we are happy when people are attracted to our beliefs and we are happy to share them with anyone who asks, most of us don't feel the need to go door-to-door or off to foreign countries in order to save people from that eternal Loving Torture thing. We love that we have our faith but don't believe that it should be used to shape legislation, decide who gets to be married, be used to justify wars or whatever. I don't know of any Spiritual Political Action Committees. I can't think of a country run by religion, where I'd like to live. Historically, the more power a religion gets over government, the worse things get for the population. Cardinal Richelieu, The Spanish Inquisition, Modern Iran and others provide examples of this. Of course, the suppression of religion is usually just as bad, as was evidenced by the Soviet Union or North Korea. We believe people should just be allowed to believe what they believe and governments should stay the heck out of it. We think religious people are generally great! Because we tend to think just about everyone is great. We realize lots of people need or want the structure, doctrine, leadership etc... that religious organizations provide. We also love all the charities and other good works they do. We just don't like it when they try to impose their beliefs on our lives but other than that, we're happy they have something that works for them. We certainly don't attack them for having a belief. So basically, spiritual people may be Christian, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim or just have their own beliefs that there is SOMETHING out there beyond our understanding. We are more concerned with our path (the plank in our eye, so to speak) then how wrong everyone else is. So without the Bible, I might be more prone to judge others and less prone to say things like "You're right. I'm wrong." or "I apologize.". It is my guide and Jesus is my Teacher. However, the bible contradicts itself all over the place. It teaches things I simply disagree with and believe are no longer applicable. For example, Matthew 19:9 says that because I am divorced and remarried (as is my ex-wife), I am living in a perpetual state of sin and therefore, gonna get that eternal torture thing - which would suck. But back in the day, Jews divorced their wives when they got old (like say, 20) and the woman was left to be a beggar or prostitute because she was no longer a virgin or 13 years old. So I just ignore that verse. Really. I think there is stuff in the Bible that is (Gasp!) wrong. Stuff that doesn't apply to me or my time. Blasphemy I know but oh well, there it is. I don't know any Christians who adhere to everything in the Bible (If you want to follow Jesus, you must hate your family and friends - the original word was hate). That's what we spiritual people do. We find the core message and try to live by it. The stuff that seems weird, corrupted or whatever, we just follow our hearts on. Not someone else's heart. Not the pastor's, rabbi's or priest's. Ours. Personal responsibility. Again, this doesn't apply to 100% of spiritual people 100% of the time. That's pretty much it.
I agree. You are very different from most Christians... and believe me, that is a good thing! You and I think alike to a great degree. Our biggest difference is that I reject the Bible as nothing more than the word of man and I was not around to see the Resurrection of Jesus so I cannot affirm that He is God. I see the New Testament as a great Book of moralistic teachings, much like Aesop's Fables. Personally I believe in God because of the experiences that I have had, not because I read of God in a book or had some preacher tell me what to believe. A wise man once told me "follow me and I will lead you straight to hell... so follow God stupid!". Man is foible God is not... so seems much safer to just have faith, pray for God's guidance and the strength to carry out His will... the go out into life and try to be of service to others. Its not rocket science lol, but many sure seem to make God much more complex than He really is. But just my opinion and I certainly speak for no one. Thanks for the post, it was a refreshing read and a nice break from the usual drama we see on the forum.
S0 what spirit do you follow then, the spirit of love thy neigbor, or the spirit of Truth, or spirit of live and let live, etc???
I was addressing no one in particular, just anyone who happened to read my post. As for "dogma" what I mean is ideas that "gawd is going to send you to hell for not attending mass every week", or "homosexuality is an abomination and is to be shunned". I haven't seen enough of your posts to know if you adhere to such dogmatic principals, but based on your OP on this thread, I'd say it's unlikely.
Your post is full of contradictions. First you beat up on us who think God is more than what our minds want to make of Him. Though as you put it...there are exceptions...it seems that you judge Christians as power hungry, hypocritical, judgemental and rather hateful people. Yet in your next post spiritual people like yourself don't judge with planks in your eye because you live and let live. Hmmmmm. Actually I have found that the truely judgemental people who can be quite hateful and frankly even bitter are the ones who say they don't judge.
Hmmm. Seems you personalize things and also project a bit. I don't " judge Christians as power hungry, hypocritical, judgemental and rather hateful people." anywhere in the post. I am a Christian. I commented on ALL organized religions (although it doesn't really apply to Buddhism or Zoroastrianism). They have all gone through or are going through their periods where this applies. But rather than just sling a few emotional outbursts, let's give you a chance to actually address what has sparked this moral outrage of yours. Name anything I'm wrong about. Let's just throw out a few points to help you get started: 1. Would you deny that religions (notice I'm not beating up on Christians) have tremendous political power in the USA and other countries like say, Iran for instance? If no, then my observation is accurate. 2. Would you deny that Muslims, Jews and (Gasp!) Christians feel they their religion is the "right" one? For example, have you ever heard a Christian say that they have a "Salvation" that non-Christians don't have? If not, then my observation is accurate. 3. Would you deny that most Muslims and Christians believe in hell, where those who haven't been saved or been good Muslims, are sent to forever? If not, then my observations are correct. So you can play the Victim Card all you want but my post contains no contradictions and is accurate. If not, rather than whine, I invite you to directly address - well anything at all would be an improvement over the first post.
Well sure I took it personally. The United States does not have a national religion. And no...I don't believe that Christianity has tremendous political power in the USA. Have you taken a look at our government lately?? It is inaccurate to lump all religions together as one entity. Each has a different set of values based on the foundations laid by different belief system. I don't deny that at all. Its not like Christians are keeping you from salvation. If you don't believe in what Islam says or what the Bible says then....you shouldn't be insecure about it. If you are insecure...that perhaps should be seen as a red flag. I'm pretty sure the Koran says I'm going to hell and that I'm an infidel. Doesn't bother me at all. Absolutely....and again, why does that bother you? Apparently.....I'm going to hell according to more then a few religions. I don't focus on things that I don't see as truth. Your op simply wasn't nice. It had more then a hint of contempt for those who don't believe as you do. But if you can't see it....then you will continue to fly blind.
"The United States does not have a national religion. And no...I don't believe that Christianity has tremendous political power in the USA. Have you taken a look at our government lately?? It is inaccurate to lump all religions together as one entity. Each has a different set of values based on the foundations laid by different belief system." Hmmm. Nice dodge. I didn't ask if we have a national religion. I asked if religion wields tremendous power and influence over our government. If you don't think so, you are woefully ignorant of the facts. Did you not see the figures spent on the 2012 elections by the Republican Evangelical PAC, Faith & Freedom Coalition, American Christian PAC and so on? You don't think hundreds of millions of dollars buys influence and political power? Yeah okay. "I don't deny that at all. Its not like Christians are keeping you from salvation. If you don't believe in what Islam says or what the Bible says then....you shouldn't be insecure about it. If you are insecure...that perhaps should be seen as a red flag. I'm pretty sure the Koran says I'm going to hell and that I'm an infidel. Doesn't bother me at all." Ah projection again. Shall I tell you you're insecure? Nah, why project the way you do. So you have a gift for missing the point - which is that this belief that some people are "right" about God and everyone else is wrong, is not something I care about. It doesn't make you bad. Just as not agreeing with it doesn't make me bad. It's just a difference between us. You seem to think point out facts is an attack and yet, you can't dispute any of the facts pointed out. They're not an attack. They're just facts. "Absolutely....and again, why does that bother you? Apparently.....I'm going to hell according to more then a few religions. I don't focus on things that I don't see as truth." Who said it bothers me? Not me. Do you ALWAYS project opinions that aren't accurate as a means of debate? That is the difference between us (again). Everything I've stated about religion, you've acknowledge is correct! However, NOTHING you've projected about me has been correct. All I have done is point out that you believe in a God that would send the majority of life into eternal torture (and you have said "Absolutely!" in agreement) and that I don't subscribe to that belief. Facts vs. hysterics, the victim card and projection. "Your op simply wasn't nice. It had more then a hint of contempt for those who don't believe as you do. But if you can't see it....then you will continue to fly blind." Thus far, you have confirmed every single thing I've posted as being factual and accurate (at least as it applies to you, personally). So facts aren't nice? Okay, rather than project a bunch of unsubstantiated bs and projection, why don't you point out specifically what "wasn't nice." Even something that isn't accurate would be better than you've done because so far, you're batting 0.00
i know one thing... and i know it well i was NOT a very good christian until i returned to the Catholic Church and whether anyone cares to believe this or not... there IS a way to stop sinning... and the Catholic Church, with the rosary and the Holy Mass did this 4 me... the Real RPesence of Christ is in His Church 24/7 to give us all a different perspective on our lives, our relationships, cicumstances... etc.... we all NEED to visit him... it really is a need... if one is going to get to heaven... Jesus said few fin the way There Mt7
And I never said that its wrong for you to feel that way. I actually said that many people feel comforted by the structure, doctrine etc... that organized religion provides. I simply pointed out the difference between us is that I don't judge your faith as being right, wrong or otherwise because I am spiritual and not religious. Whereas you have stated that you feel others need exactly what you have, in order to be worthy of God's love. Different beliefs.
