Time To Scrap Affirmative Action?

Why was/is it RIGHT (good) to mitigate the racism, oppression and discrimination minorities endured?
(There is part of the answer it seems you have not or will not seriously consider.)

 

We have laws that prohibit discrimination but that doesn't end discrimination and never will. To prosecute a discrimination case there must be compelling evidence but that evidence is non-existant when the discrimination is based solely upon individual ignorant bigoted racial prejudice. How do we document what a person thinks that affects their decisions which result in denial of equality of opportunity?

As I documented a study in 2003 established that a white job applicant was over 2.4 times likely to be hired when compared to a black applicant when all things were equal except the race of the applicant. There wasn't a "smoking gun" that could be used in court to enforce the anti-discrimination laws that are on the books but the racial discrimination was highly evident in practice. We could easily live with a statistic like 0.4 percent employment advantage for a white person over a black person but how can any of us accept the "2.4 times more likely to be hired" for a white person over a black person when all other factors except race are identical? Why aren't we all outraged that a study would reveal this blatant discrimination in employment based solely on race? Andif we're outraged then what are we doing about it? Condemning Affirmative Action that tries to mitigate this blatant discrimination in America does nothing to end the discrimination that is the core problem.

Everyone condemning Affirmative Action is really lining up with the racists that are the problem that Affirmative Action is trying to mitigate in a very small number of cases. They are fundamentally saying that the blatant racial discrimination is acceptable and we should do nothing about it. I don't like Affirmative Action but I understand the reason behind it. We need to end the problem of ignorant bigoted racial prejudice and then the requirement to mitigate its effects becomes moot. There is fundamentally no difference here than there is with government "welfare" programs that mitigate the effects of poverty. If we want to reduce government welfare programs then we need to reduce the poverty that needs to be mitigated. We need to address the problems and that is what many refuse to do.[/QUOTE]

AA should only effect organizations with a history of discrimination.

 

Why should a son be liable for someone else's father's debt?

Should all Blacks be held responsible for all black crime?


AA, as some reparation for the grotesqueness of slavery, had a basis BEFORE everyone else hopped on the bandwagon and converted it into a jobs program for themselves.

The present form of AA has to stop.

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No it isn't. AA today is no more than a sop for black failure when it happens, and it doesn't always and never has; a recruiting tool for for racist outfits like the KKK, and a tool for them to write off black success when it happens; a constant and continuing and undeserved pat on the back to white liberals at the expense of pacing credit for black success where it rightfully belongs, and a money making tool for the race hustlers that now make up the ruling council of the NAACP.

 

Who is this 'THEM' THEM THEM ,you keep refering too????????

let me guess,you are YOU YOU YOU ,a middle class look with judgement upon those you concider inferior to your just fantastic ,self!

God's gift to humanity ! woppty bloodey do,do!

if only they didn't make bad lifestyle choices the'd be ok .Kind of attitude makes me vomit,the government has a duty to its people ,government should support the needy ,fully indexed Unemployment benefits for a starter ,pensions for the weak and ill,free medical care for every citizen ,and nationalise the banks and big Buisness to pay the bill.

Oh and could the churches pay tax like the rest of us.Bloody best tax dodge for middle class moralists ever!

Capitial works to create high paying fully indexed minimum $20 an Hour jobs ,make the rich pay!

Workers have a right to a job and should takeover all factories that are threatened with closure.

Lower the working week and share the work ,30hours for 40hours pay.

Your economy ISNT working hello ,us THEMS ,are your equal not inferior ,middle class such a quaint Medievil Class!

 

Please show me, anywhere, in any of my posts, where I even insinuated that people in need are inferior to me. good luck.
While working with families in need we come across many different scenarios, sometimes good people loose their jobs and get stuck in a rut, so we try to find them work. Sometimes good people get wrapped up in drugs or alcohol addiction so we try to get them help through AA or a local church or a rehabilitation center, sometimes good people deal with mental illness so we try to get them the medical help that they need so that they can prosper...And unfortunately sometimes we come across people like you, people that are just simply lazy and feel that every one else should work 80 hrs a week and give all their money to the govt. so that they can get everything for free and not have to work...these are the hardest people to try to help, these are the people that have their children removed from their home because they can't support them...maybe you should move to Greece, I think you would fit right in.

 

In truth it only affects private enterprise that are recepients of government contracts and it does not impose quotas. What it requires them to do is to establish anti-discrimination procedures within their corporations. It never requires them to hire an unqualified person or meet any percentage of women or minority related to employment.

Many like to misrepresent Affirmative Action like it's government wielding the "big stick" but, in fact, it was a "soft glove" in addressing discrimination in employment in the United States. Major government contractors like Lockheed-Martin, Northrop-Grumman, General Electric, and Boeing are no longer affected by Affirmative Action. They have long since adopted anti-discrimination policies and procedures because they have found that it is in their best corporate interests to do so. If AA ended tomorrow none of these major government contractors would be affected.

Colleges and universities, whether private or public, are not mandated to comply with Affirmative Action. Many do because they understand that a diversified educated society is best for America but they aren't forced to comply. In all cases that I've read of they establish certain standards under which a person will be accepted and those that meet this criteria are accepted. They also retain a small number of openings for admissions for those that don't meet the established "criteria" for admission and they exercise that discretionary authority in applying Affirmative Action. No one that meets the criteria for admission is denied admission but a few that don't are allowed admission. There is no discrimination related to the established criteria for admission and no one is discriminated against.

The exceptions are few and they could as easily apply to an athlele for their football program as it could to an African-American for purely scholastic reasons. Why do some choose to condemn the use of discretionary criteria for admission when it comes to an African-American being admitted for scholastic reasons but they're not up in arms about the star high school quarterback that is allowed admission even though they didn't meet the non-discretionary admission standards?

"Affirmative Action" for athletes isn't condemned by anyone but "Affirmative Action" for a person of a minority race where established discrimination is overwhelmingly documented is condemned. That makes no real sense unless the condemnation is based solely upon racial prejudice.

 

.... and sometimes we come across an entire group of people that after over 300 years of oppression by the "white" majority in America where they have always been denied equality of opportunity it has destroyed virtually any hope of the "American Dream" and that has lead to poverty, to the break-up of families, the lost motivation for education (because they will still be discriminated against regardless of education), to criminal activities such as drug dealings and gangs (because they can obtain equality in these illegal endeavors), and virtual hopelessness.

What do we do about these people that daily face the invidious ignorant bigoted racial prejudice in our society that denies them equality in America?

 

SOFT GLOVE?

The government did and will continue to sue the pants off any corporation which doesn't tow their AA line. I think they know that.

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"Affirmative Action" for athletes isn't condemned by anyone but "Affirmative Action" for a person of a minority race where established discrimination is overwhelmingly documented is condemned. That makes no real sense unless the condemnation is based solely upon racial prejudice.


Why should it be condemned? A good athlete brings big bucks to the school which, in turn can offer scholarships to those that need them.

And the wrong in that is?.

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I agree with this. There should be a study of how much benefit there would be to our society if more had upper level education and no debt. Those on the right should not start saying that we can't afford it before any study is done. People are saying today that we will not have enough people qualified for the jobs of the future unless we improve our education system.

On Affirmative Action, I do think that we should change it from color and sex to lower income. We are losing as many poor whites in higher education. Rich blacks and rich women do not need the help but poor people of every race do.

 

I do appreciate the work that you do but government social programs have been set up because there was not enough charity taking care of the problems. SS, Welfare, Medicare, Food Stamps and Affirmative Action were set up to solve existing problems. Americans are generous with money but not enough Americans are generous with their time. Americans do through money at crises and problem but it is better to direct the money into an organized effort to solve those problems.

 

We ALL share in the burden of bearing consequences related to the legacy of slavery and OTHER decisions of OUR 'Fathers'.

What, do you think that righteousness and justice are simple or easy?

Not relevant here.

Actually, it is something else.

Really? Why and how so?

 

Sorry, Jim Crow, black schools and blocking blacks from voting would not have changed without government "interference". Sometimes Society needs to change even if it is not ready.

 

We can document a few cases of "discrimination" lawsuits filed by the US government but none of them relate to Affirmative Action. Not a single one.

For example from last year:

http://www.rgj.com/article/20120927...t-discrimination-lawsuit-against-Reno-company

"Racial harassment and discrimination" has absolutely nothing to do with Affimative Action and even some of those that oppose AA on this thread have stated that the government should become involved when a company actually commits racial harassment and discrimination.

Here's another case from 2011:

http://www.jsonline.com/business/122958478.html

Once again this has absolutely nothing to do with Affirmative Action but instead deals with a violation of law related to gender discrimination against women related to pregnancy.

Personally I've never read of a single case where the US government filed a lawsuit based upon a violation of the Affirmative Action guidelines but have read of numerous lawsuits against Affirmative Action. In some cases those lawsuits against actions by an entity were justifiable as it did amount to reverse-discrimination which is actually outside of what Affirmative Action ever required.

Affirmative Action never authorized reverse discrimination, ever, but some "entities" have gone too far in their actions related to "Affirmative Action" and that is where "AA" needs to be more proactive in preventing. A person that is unqualified for a position should not be hired or promoted to that position. They might receive discretionary favoritism in limited cases, such as being allowed a college admission which is done in limited cases for numerous reasons where a person is below the criteria for mandatory admission, but they must still be qualified. This is true in employment as well as education where a corporation may need a mechanical engineer and two individuals apply. A "white" applicant might have "job experience" while the "black" applicant does not and the corporation can select the "black" applicant over the "white" applicant ignoring the job experience based upon AA but both have to meet the requirement of having a mechanical engineering degree. The actual "criteria" must be specified in the job posting though. If experience is required and not just a BA in Engineering then that experience must exist for all applicants. If only the BA in Engineering is required then the corporation can select anyone with a BA in Engineering and reverse discrimination does not exist.

Back to the point. Please provide a documented case of the Federal Government filing a lawsuit for failure to comply with Affirmative Action guidelines. The claim was made that this has happened but I can't find a case of it happening. If it has happened then it's so rare that I didn't find it doing a google search.

 

Ironically last year Republican State legislatures attempted, and in some cases succeeded, in passing Jim Crow voter ID laws to suppress millions of African-American votes based upon the false claim these laws were intended to prevent "unlawful votes" from being cast while the actual number of "unlawful votes" cast in any general election never exceeds about 100 nationally.

"Voter fraud" where "illegal votes" are cast is virtually non-existant in the United States today but attempts by the Republican Party to suppress the African-American vote and successfully gerrymandering of Congressional Districts in the United States by Republicans is very evident today.

 

2.4 times is not surprising depending on the job. All things being equal, i wonder who judges what is equal? Throught out history the color green has always been favored over any other, why would employers knock back the best person for the job risking profits? Its such a leftist load of BS, the ghostly racism thats everywhere haunting them. They have laws on discrimination but cant prove it so make everyone guilty, the logic is astounding.

Now all things being equal, i call BS because if they were you'd expect around 2.4 times. IQ and income are fairly close amongst all races with whites being the worst off every time and white females being substantially worse off. If we are talking skilled jobs that require so sort of intelligence then 2.4 is pretty damn good considering whites average an IQ of 100, so 50% of whites average 100 or higher while only 16% of African Americans do. If there were as many blacks as whites in the country, that would mean for a 100 IQ job the whites would be 3.1 times more whites going for the job. But clearly there are many more whites, geez 2.4 times more likely is looking a damn good deal. As you go higher in IQ the gap opens even more, i think whites are 20 times more likely to have an IQ over 130 than a black American - the numbers would really blow out here! Now if we're talking Africans without mixed blood (70 IQ av) which most African Americans (85 IQ av - same as mixed whites/ blacks in South Africa) have then clearly the numbers would be further stacked against them.

AA is like chopping a few toes of every black simply for being born with superior running genes just so other races get a chance to win gold medals too. AA discriminates against mankind's evolutionary differences. Theres anti discrimination laws use them, until then people should be innocent and until proven otherwise.

 

The Supreme Court is likely to rule that, having already achieved significant racial diversity with its Top 10 plan of the University of Texas by automatically accepting students who finished in the top 10% of their high school classes, the university should not use racial preferences at the second stage of the admissions process. The Supreme Court may strike down the overuse of racial preferences by the University of Texas in favour of black and Latino students without declaring affirmative action unconstitutional. In Grutter v. Bollinger, the Supreme Court upheld the admissions policy of the University of Michigan Law School, ruling that race considerations in admissions are permissible if race is one among many factors taken into account.

 

"...Jim Crow, black schools and blocking blacks from voting would not have changed without government "interference"."

Taxcutter says:
Jim Crow, segregated public schools, and race-based voting restrictions were all government policies implemented by Democrat governments. To fight government coercive power, government coercive power is appropriate.

Jim Crow and all the old government racism has been eliminated. The only racist policy left that is backed by the coercive power of government is Affirmative Action.

Since AA is a racist government policy (like Jim Crow) it must be ended.

 

Companies hiring unqualified persons is more to blame on fear of being sued for discrimination than AA, I guess. There are many people who are quick to play the race card when they do not get a job.

 

Obviously the study by the Economic Policy Institute wasn't read, Same job, applicants had same resumes, and were coached to respond the same during initial interview. All factors were considered and the only difference was race.

http://www.epi.org/publication/webfeatures_snapshots_archive_09172003/

Living in denial of the extensive discrimination based exclusively on race is simply being ignorant. Study after study has confirmed the racial discrimiation in hiring practices.

This is racist propaganda that has been spread for years. IQ tests measure limited intelligence attributes and motivation of the person being tested play a huge factor in the scores. The generational discrimination and oppression against African-Americans has been shown to be the primary cause of the disparity in the IQ test scores. Motivation can reduce a persons test score by 20 points.

Generational discrimination and oppression has also resulted in a lack of motivation in the African-American community related to education. If a person knows that they're going to be discriminated against in employment regardless of educational achievement then why study hard in school if it won't make difference?

People need to stop believing the racist propaganda. Low IQ scores, low scholastic achievement, higher crime rates, higher unemployment statistics, more severe criminal sentencing, the breakdown in the two parent family, and poverty in the African-American community are all a result of racial discrimination and oppression which has been unrelenting for over 300 years in America.

Reverse discrimination predominately doesn't exist related Affirmative Action and "AA" doesn't advocate reverse discrimination. This is also racist propaganda based upon a few isolated anecdotal cases where some have taken "AA" too far in their policies. For the most part Affirmative Action is moot as, under the law, it only affects government contractors (and subcontractors) that years ago established anti-discrimination employment practices because it was in the best interests of the enterprised to not discriminate. But government contractors are a very small part of the US economy when it comes to employment and over 90% of business enterprises are not addressed by Affirmative Action. They are subject to the anti-discrimination laws but not to Affirmative Action.

Affirmative Action can certainly be improved but it does so little now that complaints against it really are unsupported. As long as studies reflect that "for the same job" women are only paid 78% of what a white male is paid and an African-American is only paid 60% of what a white person is paid we have a serious problem. As long as the racial discrimination in hiring, when all other factors except race are identical as documented by numerous studies, continues to exist at the levels noted we have a serious problem. This statistics all reflect "all factors being equal except gender or race" and the racists distort this fact. That "60% of compensation" is not based across the board but instead is for the "same job" with equally qualified individuals where race is the only difference. In one study the average black person with an MBA (the most cherished degree for business) received lower compensation than a white person with any four-year degree (e.g. psychology, art history, engineering) and was more likely to be unemployed than a white person with an MBA. The most cherished and highest paying degree in business and blacks received substantially lower compensation and higher unemployment rates solely because of the color of their skin.

The ignorant bigoted racial prejudice is the problem where people simply choose to ignore the facts related to invidious discrimination and oppression and keep repeating the racist propaganda that has been disproven time and time again.

 

I've never read of a case where a company hired an unqualified individual and wouldn't support it as it is not good for the enterprise. Affirmative Action never proposed that someone unqualified for a position should be hired. I've predominately worked for major defense contractors for over the last 35 years and have never met an employee that was unqualified for the job they were hired to do. I've found some unmotivated individuals but not one that was unqualified and motivation is affected more by management than any other factor.

 

Southern "Democrats" during the Jim Crow era were fundamentally "Republicans" wearing a different hat. The "Republican Party" was the Party of Lincoln that racist Southern "whites" rejected because of the Civil War. The "Southern Democrats" were "social conservatives" and not "progressive liberals" up through the 1960's.

The "photo voter ID" laws and our immigration laws are both reflective of social conservative racism and can be called "Jim Crow" laws.

The belief that Affirmative Action is coercive is unsupported by any actual evidence. As I've noted I've found lawsuits brought by the federal government related to violations of the anti-discrimination laws but I've not found any lawsuits by the federal government for failure of government contractors to comply with Affirmative Action. Anti-discrimination hiring and employment policies, which is what Affirmative action requires, is actually beneficial to enterprise as most major corporations have found. The only federal lawsuits against employers have been related to the violation of the anti-discrimination laws and were not based upon Affirmative Action.

Racists typically misrepresent enforcement of the anti-discrimination laws with Affirmative Action because the racists endorse discrimination and oppression. .

 

lol tanks for the little tin pot study. Trained people acting as criminals ect , lack of detail. Not hard to bend a such a small scale study any way you wish.

Just because you stay its racist propaganda doesnt make it so, it makes sound like a cultural relativist having a dummy spit. There is so much data on race and IQ it isnt funny. Track via twins living apart, whites from NZ to the US and in between - all the same thing. I know it makes you egalitarian skirmish, bit to bad. Data isnt racist.

Charts complied from the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth (NLSY) 1979, which was a massive study conducted for the U.S. Department of Labor, which contacted 155,000 families to obtain a representative sample by race, IQ, income, education and other factors, to see how remedial efforts for minorities were doing. 12,686 survey participants were to be interviewed each year, of which 11,914 took the AQFT test – an IQ test with a very high “g” loading. The income, education and net worth charts deal only with the group which completed the test and then were tracked over time.





It would be idiotic to think we've lived largely apart for 40,000-100,000 years and we wouldnt evolve differently, egalitarianism gets blown apart on so many levels its not funny.

 

What utter BS, shiva. In place like Philadelphia, Kansas city and Chicago 10 to 20% of the votes cast are fraudulent. You have to have iD to get Food stamps why should you not be able to prove you are who you say you are to vote. And last I heard there are no exemptions to the rule for being caucasian. Hell you got to have social security numbers for your kids to claim them on your taxes as exemptions.