Big WW2 Question: Who Really Won It?

With Eastern Front removed, the western front would be pushed back to the sea rather quickly.
Thousands of aircraft could be directed against Britain, and the resources to develop the cross channel amphibious capability would be available.

 

Where are you getting this utter rubbish from? The US and British Empire controlled the skies and would have defeated the Soviets over western Europe. This would have been much harder if the US and British Empire were trying to move east, it would be deadlock in Europe.

Even if the Soviets could land a huge force in Britain how are they going to resupply it?

 

i hate this argument no one force won the war it was a joint effort that won the war.

 

I'm saying if the Nazi and the Soviets negotiated a truce, Germany could have pushed the western allies out of europe, and may even have captured Britain.
As far as controlling the skies, without the burden of the Eastern Front, the Nazi would have had the fuel to use the Me-262, they had deployed over a 1000, but only had 2% of their operational fuel requirements available.

The point is, that FDR had to keep Stalin in the war, he couldn't push to deny the USSR a share of post war Europe.

 

There was never any question of them having a truce. So I have no idea were you are getting this from. The British and US navies were massive the largest and 3rd largest navies in history so there we never a chance that the Germany could have taken control of the channel to invade Britain with their main ship building in the North Sea and Baltic Sea. There also never any doubt about who controlled the Atlantic after 1943 so the US could have resupplied Britain at will. It is not the aircraft but the pilots, the Me-262's problem was the German's were running out of top level pilot to fly the things.

Why did F.D.R have to keep the Soviet Union in the war? Lets no forget that the US main operations were in the Pacific any "push" in Europe would have taken resources away from the war against Japan.

 

I think you should re-visit about what happened in the Crimean peninsula during WW2. Soviets invaded with all manner of amphibious craft---even from out of the Black Sea. Read up on the battles around Sebastopol and the Kerch peninsula. The Japanese Navy in 1945 was in no shape to stop troop landings.

The A-bombs were not the only thing the Japs considered when they surrendered.

 

Millions of troops perhaps, but only one nuke.

 

Then Hitler would have been strong enough to conquer Russia, so why would Stalin have agreed to a separate peace?

 

To win the Cold War at the beginning, all Truman would have had to do was use our monopoly on nukes. But the MI Complex would have missed out on 45 years of extorting wealth, and the ruling class wouldn't have had a believable Communist threat to keep the people in their place.

In our present was against the jihad, it would be all over if we confiscated Muslim oil. We should have done that back in 1973. But the American oil companies would have missed out on trillions of dollars of extorted profits by piggybacking off the illegal OPEC cartel. And once again our ruling-class traitors wouldn't be able to use a believable threat to put the people in their place.

 

The Allies won of course. America, due to its overwhelming manufacturing ability supplied most of the hardware. It's Allies supplied most of the men which resulted in the Axis powers being outnumbered 100 to one.

Nevertheless, due to America's socialist, minority-run government of today many Americans are asking if their country fought on the wrong side.

 

No, they wouldn't. What a ludicrous post.

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I would say that those countries who LOST the war did.

 

Those countries before the war weren't democratic, now they are. Those countries before the war were always worried about being invaded or attack by foreign powers they no longer are. Germany and Japan in the long run gained from WW2. In fact the only major world power that lost from WW2 was the British Empire. Nobody can call France, Holland or Italy world powers by WW2.

 

I always believed it was the Allied Powers that won. It was not any one by themselves, but all combined that was more then the Tripartite Pact could handle.

 

From the Soviet POV, the Americans and their underlings ended up taking control of most of the Pacific basin and encircling the Soviet Union. So "who won" all depends on how you choose to look at it.

 

America won 70 - 80% of the victory in the Pacific....with the help of the British, Chinese, Australians and New Zealanders...negligible to no help from the Soviets.

The Soviets were probably responsible of about 50% - 60% of the victory over the European Axis.
They were invaded, they lost millions of civilian citizens to Nazi brutality...
America was never invaded by the Germans...maybe a U-Boat or two showing up in a canal on the East coast...

Love 'em or hate 'em...the Soviets suffered....and suffered....and suffered.

The Eastern Front, we're talking about the most brutal warfare in human history here...never before or since...has this planet seen the level of combat, brutality and savagery...

1 in 10 Russians were dead or missing after it was all said and done.

 

What happened to the Chinese was very very bad aswell.

The US did all the work in the Pacific, in Asia and the Indian Ocean the US did very little compared to what the Indian's, British, Chinese, Australia and New Zealanders did. So in the two most important theatres of the war the Soviet Union and US did the most, backed up by the Chinese and British Empire.

 

You don't just pull amphibious capabilities out of your rear end. You also have to consider that the Germans/Soviets had little naval experience or tradition. They were facing the RN and USN which were the most experienced navies in the world at the time. You also have to consider that the U.S. alone had more economic output than all of the Axis powers combined. By 1945 the USN was bigger than the rest of the world's navies combined. In order to carry out large amphibious operations you have to have complete air and naval superiority (as the allies did at Normandy). If the Germans had attempted to land the USN and RN would have wiped out the invasion force in a matter of hours.

 

Sending a few thousand troops across something as tiny as the Black Sea against a German Navy/Air Force with little capacity for naval operations isn't remotely comparable to massive amphibious invasions that involve tens of thousands of troops in open oceans hundreds or even thousands of miles away from friendly shores. The Soviet Navy was a small and inexperienced force that was never in a position to challenge a 1st rate Navy like the RN or USN.

 

Quite a statement, considering they lost 8.7m of their military.

 

You should also realize that the USSR did about 80% of the fighting against the Germans.
If FDR had tried to impose restrictions on Stalin, Stalin could have decided to let the Germans last longer, he could have made a truce with Hitler, which would have allowed Hitler to push the Allies off the continent of Europe.
Amphibious capabilities can be manufactured fairly quickly, it's a 20 mile crossing, not an island hopping campaign.

 

I am largely ignoring goober, because his rants make little military sense.

For one, there was no way either Hitler or Stalin were going to agree to a truce. Only the complete and utter destruction of the other would have worked, period. Hitler had a better chance of getting a truce with the UK then he did with the USSR (hence Rudolf Hess' jump into England in 1940).

A German invasion of England was simply not going to happen. Old Adolph completely lacked everything that would have been needed to do so, as well as the doctrine, training, or plans on how to carry it off in any form.

And also at this time, I would say that the best Navy was actually that of Japan. They had the best ships of the time, the highest quality of training, in addition to an agressive doctrine that saw it take on both the US and UK and beat both of them. They also by far had the best Naval aircraft of the time, it took the US years to catch up.

And sorry, but the Soviet Navy was a joke. It lost to an inferior Japanese navy a generation prior, and had shown no real signs of improvement.

And there was also no way Germany was going to send anything to Japan, no more then Japan sent anything to Germany. While both on the same alliance, they had vastly different goals and agendas, and there was simply no way for Germany to send support of any importance to Japan even if they wanted to.

 

For one, Stalin would not have agreed to a truce after Hitler invaded the USSR. Period. And if Stalin had even tried, I bet that there would have been a coup within his government within weeks if not days. Hitler came close to destroying the USSR, and they were not going to forgive that, ever.

And hopping across some islands is not the same kind of amphibious capability that is needed to invade a continent. It took years to prepare for D-day, the US and UK did not suddenly decide in March "Hey, I think we should invade Europe in 3 months!" It took years of staging, training and preparation before that could happen (including lessons learned in other amphibious operations, including those in the Pacific, as well as Operation Torch, Operation Husk, Operation Avalanche, and Operation Shingle). As you can see, the Allies had several "trial runs" and a lot of lessons to learn prior to invading Europe. Lessons the Germans simply had not learned.

 

I was just pointing out that for the US to invade Europe, across 3,000 miles of ocean was a different task than for the Germans to invade Britain that was 20 miles from Europe which would have been completely in German hands at that point.
And the bulk of the German forces wouldn't be on the eastern front, they'd be available for the invasion.

 

What year are we talking about here? After the Battle of Midway the USN was clearly in a dominant position over the IJN. Either way, the Japanese had no chance of carrying out any kind of significant operations in the Atlantic. I agree that after Hitler broke the non-aggression pact there was no chance in hell the two countries would come to a truce.

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The U.S. wouldn't have to invade Europe....it had Great Britain. The Germans were never even remotely close to being in a position to successfully invade Britain, both before and after U.S. involvement in the war.

 

The US did not have to "invade across 3,000 miles of ocean". Like an invasion half a century later, it had a staging area to build up and train forces in.

And I don't know why you keep trying to go back to peace between Germany and the USSR again, would not have happened. The only way would be to have Germany not attack in the first place.