Secession. Good for America

LOL, I live in the country, I work hard and I play hard, I have boxed and studied martial arts for over six years, I shoot on a weekly basis and have done two combat tours as a Grunt (That is an Infantry Soldier for the stay home boys/girls).
So, any time sonny boy, any time.

 

Hey, great idea! We could all have our own armies, our own currency, our own huge tax increases to pay for the inefficiencies, ...

 

Every political ideology can lead to a bad or perverted form of that same type of government, or no government at all which is basically anarchy. That's why you need two things. An involved and informed populace, and more than two major political parties to viably choose from. It is always up to the people no matter what form of government to be involved in that government and be the watchful eyes of their democracy. Left to it's own, EVERY government system will eventually corrupt itself.

My understanding of history does show me that there has been no system of government that has ever been faultless, and that the differences between modern society and those in history past are monumental. There's a very good reason for that. People. Always people. You have to find a balance between government and private enterprise. You have to strike a balance between order and chaos. Extremes to either side will always be bad. Modern society is not the same as any that has existed in history before it. Technology has changed the landscape. People have the ability to be involved and informed on levels unimaginable even 150 years ago, and people are the core of any Republic or Democracy.

I am a very practical person and I weigh the pros and cons of things. That's how I approach politics and government as well. My views don't fall along some predetermined pattern. I have some leftist views, I have some moderate ones, and I have some conservative ones. They differ depending on the specific issue. I don't want to live in a communist system. Having left leaning views does not mean I do. There's something called moderation and balance and they are very important concepts. Because I think the government should be involved in a certain area, because it makes sense, does not mean that I want to take over the world. It does not make me a totalitarian.

The problem with seeing things in black and white is that you don't actually live in an either/or world. There is a spectrum for everything.

 

The entire idea is simply wishtful thinking by a bunch of malcontents, hey if you are all so interested in changing things then why don't you get involved with politics, change it from the inside. But no that would be too hard, if you think a shooting war, and there would be one, will get you your utupia and would be and easy thing you have never seen war and it's horrors, it isn't only the other guy and their family that pay the price. Simply amazes me to see conservatives that used to be the most Patriotic talk of splitting up the Nation, the Founders would NOT be proud of you for giving up so easily, I guess people have become too lazy and jadded to want to do it the right way.
Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
Night all.

 

The thing is, is that you still believe in government, just reduced. But reduced from what? A totalitarian state? On many subjects I would agree with you. I hate mandatory seat belt laws, mandatory insurance laws and the whole nanny state mentality. Sure I may still believe that the government should provide a safety net for its poorer citizens (hey, I'm a liberal), but there are sections of our values that overlap. Can't we find a common ground to work things out? Your problem is that you view the world in terms of absolutes, and it just doesn't work that way.

 

succession good for people not getting what they want no matter how (*)(*)(*)(*)ed up they what they want is

 

Right and since this is the internet I'm a rocket scientist, married to a korean model, I have every make and model car from 1940 to present sitting in my own private air craft hangar, and I own my own island in the pacific ocean. Because this is after all the internet where anyone can be anything they want.

 

You believe in positive government on the federal level - that is an absolute deal breaker.

People who want to live as free men understand that government necessarily must be negative, i.e. it must be constrained by the chains of a constitution.

You have accepted some lies that have been carefully crafted to give the appearance of being logical, yet are nothing more than a trap. The Constitution as a "living document", and interpretations of "necessary and proper" and "promote the general welfare", etc... have cleared the way for our Constitution to be transformed from the negative document that kept us all safe from centralized, unchained governmental power to one that literally does nothing to constrain the beast.

It has gotten so bad, that even legislation that flies directly in the face of the Bill of Rights, The Patriot Act and NDAA, are easily accepted in the name of "safety".

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both."
- Benjamin Franklin

You want us to quietly go along with what we know to be foolish, and will ultimately end in disaster. We have not arrived at the station of totalitarianism yet - YET; but we will be there soon enough. It is history over and over again - once a government is unconstrained by the rule of law, it will invariably expand its power. Always in the name of doing good, protecting rights, helping the underdog... once sufficiently empowered, the need for pretense is needed no more and what you're left with is tyranny.

You have us travelling on the path to tyranny - only someone who has either rejected the lessons of history, or never been exposed to the lessons of history to begin with cannot, or will not, see it.

I don't expect people to be as well versed as I am in history or the tactics of the left, but you don't have to be a student of the left to understand some of the basics. The basics are no longer taught in the government schools though, are they?? and for good reason from the perspective of the left - they don't want the masses to recognize and realize what is being done to them, i.e. they are being made into a people who are easily controlled and manipulated by a centrally controlled and directed government, i.e. a tyranny.

If you want statist government, the U.S. Constitution affords you that - on the state level. 50 mini-laboratories. If a citizen doesn't like living in the Marxist utopia of California, he can move to a state with less government and more freedom and common sense. That isn't how the left plays though... the left wants to control everyone in a 'one size fits all', centrally controlled government.

Freedom is an absolute. The principles of freedom are absolutes. Sorry, but they are not negotiable - and many of us have had enough. We see the writing on the wall and want out - it isn't a matter of simply getting a divorce; it literally is us trying to escape the hangman.

We are the Jews of Nazi Germany trying to get out before the beast is completely unchained.

 

Yes an involved and informed populace is necessary to maintaining proper governance - but we no longer have an informed population, and our government is in no way properly maintained.

That's the point of understanding history - something you have openly admitted you have no use for.

Going back 100 years, to John Dewey (the "Father of modern education") and the Fabian Socialists, progressives, social democrats, etc, they began to erase from the pages of our history books long recognized and understood historical lessons and perspectives that gave the population a proper understanding of what government should look like, and why unconstrained government was such a danger.

Now, all these years later, after terms and definitions have been changed so effectively as to deliberately mislead unsuspecting citizens like yourself, our Constitution and country are unrecognizable from our founding.

It isn't a matter of a population becoming "enlightened", or gaining wisdom and insight - rather it is a prime example of a population that has been deliberately made ignorant and dumbed down for the purpose of making them easy to control and manipulate.

The growth and expanding power of government is not an indicator of a society growing in a positive way; it is exactly the opposite. The growth of government is a symptom of decay - a society that is dying by way of ignorance.

A properly informed and educated population keeps its government in check. An ignorant population cheers its growth until such time as the government is so large that it cannot be constrained. That is history 101 - and that is why it is vitally important that all citizens be properly educated about history, and governmental systems.

This is a very naive and uninformed view.

I can assure you that the average American of 150 years ago was much better informed about the principles of freedom than the average Amerikan today.

Democracies are inherently unstable, and always die predictable and violent deaths. Again, that is history 101.

There is nothing new under the sun... our Founding Fathers understood governmental systems very well, and correctly recognized that freedom can only flourish under republican principles. The Federalist Papers, the Anti-Federalist Papers, and many other of their writings, and the writings from history spell these lessons out very clearly.

Freedom is "black and white" - it is "either or" - either you are free, or you're not.

The essence of freedom is the limitation of government. Leftists want to control the population with central government. To do that, they needed the chains of constitutional constraint removed. That process began over 100 years ago - and is culminating in the mess we have today.

You may not be a "totalitarian", but a totalitarian would call you a "useful idiot". Nothing personal, it is a term used by communists who are expert at enlisting the help of those they intend to enslave into working for their own enslavement. If they truly understood what they were working toward, they would reject it out of hand - but the deception is very powerful.

Nothing can be done at this late stage... the cancer is too far advanced.

 

Unlike you I can prove my claims, you on the otherhand live in a fantasy would of the internet and your own delusions. Why I did not put your White Nationalist Racist arse on ignore once you proved through your own words that you are proud of your ignorance and hate I have no idea, but I will rectify that now. See ya at the war slick.

 

Before those alienated from America abscond in a tizzy, why not conduct an experiment to give them a taste of independence and fiscal responsibility.

Let all malcontented states that are currently recipients of more federal funding than they contribute, go cold turkey on accepting the largesse of more affluent states that would then retain the revenue they generate.

Both would then be able to make a more realistic, informed decision.

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The cartogram above shows a map of the United States with the sizes of the states exaggerated or reduced to indicate relative sizes of their net contribution to (blue) or net receipts from (purple to red, where red is the most receipts per capita) the federal budget in 2004.
The biggest contributors and recipients are thus the biggest in the graphic, while those that are relatively neutral are smallest.​

 

You actually changed my mind. I think you should secede from the US and I would support you 100%.

 

Maybe by your logic, we should have a one world government. Look at all the money we will save.

 

I have seen articles that say the general trend for America is that it is going to become a Liberal nation. The demographics are pointing in that direction.

Which means that a secession movement is going to become strong in the future. Why? Because there will be no chance for right of center values to be practiced. So with no chance of every winning another election again, the right is going to want their own country.

 

By your logic the US should still be part of England. Is that what you are arguing? Maybe the original 13 colonies should have worked in the system then?

 

1. Standing Armies.

The Founding Fathers rightfully recognized a standing army as one of the greatest threats to the kind of country they were trying to build. It is the tipping point between government "by consent of the governed" and government "because we'll kill you, that's why". To find evidence for this we need look no further than leftysergeant's threat of "a bullet in the back" to anyone who decides not to "consent" to be governed.

2. Population.

Most people recognize that direct democracies only work in small groups, but what people don't want to consider is that there comes a point at which, through high population, representative democracy also loses viability. The power is too far removed from the people, and Washington D.C. becomes Rome.

http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/11391-democracy-is-a-continent-too-big
As for Madison's statement that elites could "divide and conquer" the country, can there be any doubt that the left/right paradigm (reinforced by the two-party system) is the realization of this fear?

 

Then you work within the system to change it, too much work for ya?

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I see this all the time. The left argues that Red States are parasites. If you truly believe that, why not cut the Red States out. Isn't that what you do with cancer?

I like what this Liberal says about the Red States:

http://www.amazon.com/Better-Off-Wi...333752&sr=8-1&keywords=better+off+without+'em

 

You would not abandon a family member because he or she failed to thrive to the extent that you do, would you? Call it loyalty or patriotism, but there is a moral commitment involved.

Whatever it is that your "left" argues with you, my distinction was between net donor states and net recipient states, not upon your political bifurcation. As another fiscal consideration, an absconding state would also be liable for the value of all federal land within its borders.

It's easy to see why states where a significant number of folks are alienated from America are not about to actually ignore their dependence, much as they kvetch.

Any correlations regarding states with higher academic achievement, higher income, better health, healthcare and family stability and those deficient in those areas are also coincidental with their political dispositions.

Breaking up is hard to do, but an equitable economic resolution would be an essential consideration you cannot ignore.

 

Ya, people who claim to have been to war, then huff and puff their chest out for another, are full of (*)(*)(*)(*).

I've seen war, and despise the very act of it. I don't think succession is very likely, or very practical. But if it ever came to that point, why is there a need for chest thumping and violence?

People like you need to back way from the keyboard, and take a breather.

Better yet, give me a thousand acres of good timber and grassland, with a little bit of water, and I'll secede from all the nut jobs in this country.

 

Those resources are just not available for everybody who wants them, whether they can pay the price of the average acerage or not. We just have to figure out how to divide the commons among ourselves to create as nearly equal opportunities for success as possible.

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I am a soldier. It is my duty to help suppress insurrection. If you and a tiny band decide it is time to raise the flag of rebellion, then the rest of us do have the right to put you down by any means available. You do not get to decide for the grown-up.

Actually, this is why the white nationalists are pushing the idea of seccession. It's all part of the plan for RaHoWa.

 

Which war is you say I am advocating? The one sucessionists would start?
I do agree that it is highly unlikely and not practical.
As I said, if you do not like the way the system is working (or not working) then get involved and change it from within, tearing the Nation apart is not the answer.
I was replying to the White Nationalist Racist and their BS, but you are right I should not lose my cool with the likes of them.
Buy property in the country then move there, warning; it is a lot of work living in the country but being able to set out in the evening and not hear the drone of the city is worth it.

 

And that's the reason why people want out of this union. The left does not care about states rights, or local rule. The left has a plan and they full intend to ram it down the throats of the locals whether they like it or not. That includes ideas like Obamacare, gay rights, gun control etc etc etc.

As far as the left is concerned, the Red States are a bunch of inbreed knuckle dragging neanderthal that marry their cousins. And we the blue states know better.