Should All Occupied Territories Be Given Back?

I'm not talking about single homes of terrorist families that were demolished as a result of a suicide bombing I am talking about home demolitions on a large scale conducted in the west bank in order to make way for Jewish settlers, tell me the names of the west bank villages leveled since Oslo, as prior to Oslo all of the West Bank was under complete Israeli military and civil administration. Again we are talking about the West Bank not East Jerusalem which is under complete Israeli civil administration which entails the right to demolish homes built without permits or which are not up to code the same as any other nation-state.

 

I see you failed to read the article. Not much point in speaking then because a person cannot understand what they refuse to look at and just keep on propagating the propaganda which the article addresses.

You see you didn't read it. It claims that Zionism demands the right to a country which according to the bible Jews lived in 2000 years ago, never mind the few who still lived there who of course belonged but which from the article and other sources you will see were frequently against Zionism itself. So on the basis of a religious book, but a people showing disdain for that religious book or any other, the zionists expected the arabs who had been living in the area for 1000-5000 years to give up all their hopes for their own state and let these Europeans in. You are just a broken record of uninformed propaganda Face your. I suggest you go back and study the article properly.

Not quite. Zionism was originally the concept of Christian Zionists wanting to get Jews out of Europe and return them to Palestine for Rapture and Armageddon. It was also an antisemitic cause simply to get Jews out of Europe and the US and several places were looked at to put them. Then it was later picked up by Jews who did not like Judaism. Zionism was rejected by most religious jews as being against Judaism and was rejected by many Jews because they could see it for what it was - an intent to get Jews out of Europe and America.

Certainly during the 30's more Jews moved to Palestine because of antisemitism in Europe and that of course caused uprisings as the arab population saw their homeland and nationalistic hopes being destroyed. After WW2 even more but the Palestinians were not the people doing this. What on earth gives you the disturbed view that because Jews suffered antisemitism in Europe and the US, it had the right to take over another people's homeland who were not involved in this at all. You had far less right than the descendents of Scottish Highlanders who were expelled 300 years ago have of claiming the highlands of Scotland and they would have zero chance.

 

Do you remember what the West Bank was like before 1967? I do.

 

But nobody asks the Arabs, you or the Highlanders if Jews had the right to live in Tel Aviv, Rishon, Beniyamina, Tveria, Petah Tikva, Kfar Ezion, Zichron Yaacov, Beit Dagan, Gadera, Hadera, Keneret, Kfar Tavor, Mishmar HaYarden, Ekron, Rehovut, Nes Ziona... and many more !!! - all those Jewish towns already existed in the 1930's so stop blaming the Nazi refugees for all your troubles....

 

No I read the article, it's claims are not accurate, E.G. Zionism was not biblically inspired, Arabs didn't own the land from the get they were landless tenant migrant workers on Ottoman lands, and the vast majority of the land partitioned to the Jews was in fact desolate and uninhabited IE 70% of the land under the partition plan granted to the Jews was located in the Negev desert which was very sparcly populated and undeveloped.

Zionism was a largely secular movement, I did read it that's my damn point Zionism was not based on biblical claims to the land.

Zionist claims to Israel are not based on biblical claims or titles granted by god it is based on the fact that Jews are the indigenous peoples of that land and have had an unbroken presence therein for 10,000 years.

Really? Name them. Herzl was the grandfather of Zionism and he was Jewish not a Christian Zionist. Absolute nonsense.

This is just a lie based on nothing.

It was rejected by some orthodox Jewish groups, where is a legitimate source claiming that "most religious Jews" rejected Zionism.

lol ya calls for a Jewish homeland on 10% of the Palestinian Mandate leaving an Arab nation on 90% of the mandate was surely destroying Arab nationalistic hopes.

Whose homeland? The Jews have had an unbroken presence in the Levant for 10 thousand years, they were not asking for the entirety of the mandate, they were not even asking for half, they were asking for only 10% on lands which in the majority were either owned outright by Jews or were public lands under Ottoman and later British administration.

 

There was comparative peace between all Palestinian groups before the European influx. You've just demonstrated that yourself.

 

But no sovereign state, they cant inforce anything on others by law.

 

What does that mean.. How long was Israel a sovereign state?

 

The British were squatting on it.

 

That made promisis to all sides around them.

 

It's news to nobody that the British were- and are- imperialist lizards.

 

That the Arabs could not enforce their will on the Jews, there wasnt a state back than, it the strong enforces his will on the weak its only by force of arms and not by law as being tried to suggest. they had no right to oppose Jews coming to live in existing Jewish towns.

 

The Palestinians have been around forever.. and many are descended from Jews who didn't leave. .. mixed with crusaders, Turks, Greeks and so forth. Arab migrations to Palestine and the Levant began thousands of years ago. Arab tribes were settled in Samaria by the time of Sargon 2..

So I would think they are very attached to the land and have some rights too.

And you have to consider that refugee populations always present a problem to the native inhabitants.

 

At the time the British promised a Jewish homeland they did it simply because they thought it would help them win WW1.

They had no idea what they meant but it could not by their mandate have been a state as that was promised to the people already there - jews amounting to something like 2 to 5%

In addition there is plenty of questioning whether there ever was this large exodus, I do not deny that Europe wanted rid of her Jews but you have not learned from your own suffering, if you cannot see what you did to people by taking from them their rightful homeland. It will never be your rightful homeland. Much of the bible is fantasy and the exodus in any large number is highly questioned, mind never after centuries away. Your best hope is to get a little humanity and begin to understand what you did to the Palestinians - both in taking over their nationalist hopes and in the ethnic cleansing from 47. You cannot have peace when you speak a lie and that is what Israel did and is currently doing. If Israel can start being honest, and I would think that would be painful to most people, but if Israel can start being honest and make amends some peace may be possible. It begins with honesty.

 

Then explain the massacres in Hebron and Safed. Pogroms against the Jews in the mandate predate Kristallnacht by a decade.

 

and you are pretending all was peace and honey The influx from the 30's is what I said caused the major reactions from the Arabs so give up your twist . The reality that there never would have been a Jewish state if it had not been for the holocaust is another thread.

 

Name these tribes. FYI the so called "Palestinians" did not self identify as such until 1967 after Jordan and Egypt renounced claims of sovereignty over the West Bank and Gaza respectively.

 

Jews were in the majority in the lands granted to them under partition. Furthermore; they were only partitioned 10% of the total mandate of Palestine but even this tiny Jewish state was to much for Muslim sensibilities to stomach.

lol Palestinian nationalism did not begin until 1967, had the Arabs accepted partition in '48, an Arab nation would today encompass 90% of the British Mandate of Palestine, however, they thought they would instead get 100% and push the Jews into the sea.

Oh and it's an interesting form of ethnic cleansing that leaves a 30% Arab population in Israel with full citizenship, high living standards, and equal rights unparallelled anywhere in the Arab world.

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Then explain the 1929 Hebron and Safed massacres?

 

I have known Palestinians since 1952... That stuff about them not being Palestinians until 1967 is nonsense. They were for the most part descended from Jewish farmers who didn't leave ... Some converted to Christianity.. later some converted to Islam...

You can read a brief history of Sargon 2 settling 4 Arab tribes in Samaria around 700 BC..

http://www.rafapal.com/wp-content/u...d-The-Invention-of-the-Jewish-People-2009.pdf

The history is far more complicated than you want to believe.

 

Im not questioning their rights for the land they sat in, I denay they had rights for the land they didnt and where the Jewish immigrants have built their own during the Ottomans.

 

Maybe yes maybo no, it wasnt just depending on European refugees, but in any case I still dont see the "right" the Arabs had to deny refugees dwelling in those Jewish towns, I can invite anyone to live in my home regardless of what my neighbors think, its not nice perhaps but they dont have the right to storm in and slay us.

 

The European refugees treated them very badly.... Read some accounts from the 1920s and 1930s. They weren't rejected because they were Jews.. They were rejected because they were Europeans.

 

Do you read what you write "Ottoman Empire".
What makes an Empire ?
wiki:

So we find out the Ottmans are the ones who annex Cyprus is the first place.
The Brits, set it free.

 

You are looking at result to detrmine the equasion, the Palestinans suffer today so they must have been right all along.

It doesnt matter how many Jews there were because it wasnt a sovereign state, borders were not determined, you disagree with Britain decision, OK, we see it as just they acknowlegd the natural place for Jewish state in its historical - now stateless - origin.

We take for a fact ppl like you will never accept Israel and that's why we are cautious about peace agreement, its not simply withdraw and all will be well, we take for a fact some will continue to fight.

 

links?

There was a lot of blood shed and murders around I know, but read what your peers write, they admit and justify the Arab hostile greeting.