Are the Palestinians the Jews NOT expelled from Judaea after Bar Kochba Revolt?

Discussion in 'Middle East' started by DennisTate, Feb 2, 2013.

  1. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    you make claims against most Jews without any evidence to support it.

    many Christian Zionists also support Israeli actions, but you don't talk about them.
     
  2. Sherri Munnerlyn

    Sherri Munnerlyn New Member

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    There are Jews who are not Zionists and/or who are persons of conscience who take courageous stands speaking against the Occupation. Let me name a few, Richard Falk, Joseph Dana, Phil Weiss, Norman Finkelstein, Ilan Pappe, Chomsky, Uri Avnery, Amira Hass, the Jews who write and post on Mondoweiss, the Jews who write and post on 972 Magazine, Tony Karon. There are many others.
     
  3. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Its bigoted and disgusting to say that ALL Jews on Earth support right-wing Israeli actions, like building settlements and discriminating against Palestinians.
     
  4. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    All these names plus Eleven hundred other names in addition to the Neturei Karta are on the $hit List Publication and everyone of them is defined by his action and merit.

    Remind me of Margot name dropping.
     
  5. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sherri..........you have an interesting point that running away may well not be the absolute best way to play the role in life that we have been chosen for!
     
  6. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, of course I don't? Why on earth should I? I don't hate anyone except the spirit of Margaret Thatcher, but I hate Nazism and am contemptuous of the Zionists (who - like their German comrades) detest everything the Jewish religion ever stood for). Go back and try to do the Goebbels better than that, laddie - that drivel is VERY tired.
     
  7. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Many Zionists, including myself, support equal rights for all Israelis and fair treatment for the Palestinians. We support a two-state solution and sharing Jerusalem.

    But you of course prefer to view ALL Zionists as right-wing extremists, because that fits your agenda.
     
  8. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    There is nothing wrong to be a Zionist, a Jew, a Hebrew, an Israeli, a Jewish Nationalist... If these are considered 'Right Wing extremists' then please(all of you) jot me down for one and I am going to wear this with pride on my lapel.
     
  9. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not all the ex-Jewish inhabitants of Palestine are Nazis, obviously (where else were so many able to go in 1947?) any more than some of my relations in the Nazi colony in Rhodesia were. They got out, however. You will not get rid of the Nazis while you live in a racist state, any more than they could. It gradually rots all thought and decency, as you will find.
     
  10. Marlowe

    Marlowe New Member

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    But I doubt whether yr friend - the Bender - share your views supporting
    fair treatment /egual rights + the two state solution.

    I've paid a couple of short visits to Israel , and from what I saw , makes me believe that the majority Jewish Israelis do not support a two state solution .- majority do not support the withdrawal of illegal Jewish colonies built on illegally occupied Palestinian lands . Most Israelis dread the idea of those fanatical "settler/colonists " Jews returning to Israel proper i.e. with 1967 borders.

    I say "illegally Occupied " since even Israel's ally - USA , do not recognized any legitimacy to Israel building Jewish colonies beyond its 1967 - UN accepted borders.

    I repeat - non-Jews ( Christian /Muslims Palestinians) are not treated fairly within Israel - they are regularly discriminated against - in various ways. Israel is a racist state - a democracy for Jews only.
    ....
     
  11. Marlowe

    Marlowe New Member

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    That's true - meanwhile Israel's financial elite are securing their future by moving , as much of their wealth , to Europe + USA.

    Like this one : He's just another amongst many others .


    "Israel’s wealthiest man Idan Ofer set to move to London amid tax row "


    Israel’s wealthiest man is moving to London amid a row in the Jewish state over plans to squeeze more taxes out of the rich.


    Idan Ofer, who is reported to be worth some $6.5bn, will join the increasing number expats in the capital who enjoy substantially lower charges on their wealth than they pay at home. The move is also likely to reignite a row over the lowering last week of the top rate of income tax.

    Mr Ofer, a magnate whose business interests span energy, shipping and transport, is the head of Quantum Pacific Group which holds the Ofer family stake in Israel Corporation, the largest public holding company on the Tel Aviv stock exchange. Like his similarly wealthy older brother, Eyal, Idan Ofer inherited his business acumen – and much of his wealth - from his father, Sammy, one of Israel’s most successful businessmen who died a couple of years ago.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...t-to-move-to-london-amid-tax-row-8566269.html



    Whilst most Jews might harbour dual loyalties/ dual allegiances - they'd also desert Israel when it becomes to their financial disadvantage.

    TRue to their parasitic nature

    Oy Vey !

    ....
     
  12. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    I've been there as well. My analysis is that although Israels government has implemented policies that do encourage Arab integration many people seem not too interested in helping.
    E.g. the state pays companies that hire Arab employees. But that doesn't mean that there going to hire them even if that person is a good candidate.

    There is also one thing that struck me when I was in Israel is that people are really quite paranoid.

    I think that in many ways Israel can have conflicting views regarding the Arabs at least state policy-wise.
    Also the other thing about Israel is that there is new generation of people that aren't as interested in war, be they aggressive of defensive ones.
    Speaking with quite a few IDF troops (careerists) they said that there has been a change in the motivation between the younger and older generation of conscripts. And this was just after the 2008 Lebanon war. The same year I visited.

    But generally speaking I think Israeli politics and culture will change in a potentially progressive way.
     
  13. klipkap

    klipkap Well-Known Member

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    I have never disputed that most Jews have a shared Middle East heritage. You keep serving this up as though it is disputed when it is not. And you serve it up as a strawman discussion when you are presented with iron-clad evidence that the Ashkenazim, in addition to their ME heritage, also have a huge dollop of European genes in the form of southern Mediterranean and Caucasian signatures , sufficient perhaps to make them as European as they are ME. We have Elhaik’s recent studies which totally debunks your claims that the Ashkenazim “certainly don’t come from Khazars, as this silly ideas (sic) has been debunked long ago” to show that the exact opposite to what you so confidently claimed is the case.

    But those facts which are not in dispute (other that by Myth purveyors) are not what this thread is about. What this thread highlights is that the Jews who did not take part in the European diaspora must have “gone” somewhere. We know from recorded history that there were many. We know that, notwithstanding the persecutions massacres, they did not disappear. We know they converted to Christianity rather than leave their beloved land. We know that the Samaritans are of the same stock and that they too converted. We know that most of those who remained in the Promised Land underwent a yet further conversion in the 7thC. We know that some Jewish traditions and ceremonies lived on in those who remained behind …. to this very day.

    How do we know all this? We have all of the following properly referenced in this thread:

    # We have the testimonies recorded by Tzvi MiSinai that many Jewish rites are still practiced in Palestinian and Bedouin homes and cemetaries.
    # We have the New Testament describing the early conversions of Jews. The Catholic Encyclopedia: Proselyte records “the first Christians, as described in the first chapters of the Acts of the Apostles, were all Jewish, either by birth, or conversion”
    # We have the radical Zionist Shmuel Katz (in Battleground – 1974) attesting the post-diaspora presence as follows: “Jewish life remained active and productive. Banished from Jerusalem, it now centred on Galilee. Refugees returned; Jews who had been sold into slavery were redeemed. In the centuries after Bar Kochba and Hadrian, some of the most significant creations of the Jewish spirit were produced in Palestine. It was there that the Mishnah was completed and the Jerusalem Talmud was compiled, and the bulk of the community farmed the land."
    # Subsequently we have the Qur’an ordering the forced conversion of non-Muslims (including Christains, Jews and Samaritans) to Islam.
    # We have the historical student Rabbi Simmons summarise that the historical record pointing to these successive conversions of Jews and subsequently of Christian Jews - even in relatively recent times.

    We have various DNA studies which point to the fact that those who continued to occupy the Promised Land did not get there by filling the vacuum that was left when the diapora occurred; they simply remained there, having been there all the time, as Simmons and Katz attested.

    # We have conclusions by Nebel – “Single-step microsatellite networks of (Palestinian Authority) Arab and Jewish haplotypes revealed a common pool for a large portion of Y chromosomes, suggesting a relatively recent common ancestry.

    We have your own Wiki reference which (when not cherry-picked) gives my position the following iron-clad confirmation:

    # “a substantial portion of Y chromosomes of Jews (70%) and of Palestinian Muslim Arabs (82%) belonged to the same chromosome pool."
    # “This study showed that the Jews of North Africa showed frequencies of their paternal haplotypes almost equal to those of the Lebanese and Palestinian non-Jews
    # “Lucotte et al. 2003 study found that (Oriental, Sephardic, Ashkenazic Jews and Lebanese and Palestinians), "seem to be similar in their Y-haplotype patterns, both with regard to the haplotype distributions and the ancestral haplotype VIII frequencies."
    # “The authors found that "the most similar to the Jewish populations is the Palestinian population"
    # "These observations are supported by the significant overlap of Y chromosomal haplogroups between Israeli and Palestinian Arabs with Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi Jewish populations"

    I repeat, your own reference delivered that evidence.

    And then we have Ariella Oppenheimer’s (Tel Aviv Hebrew University) confirmation that this is also the view of Israel’s foremost genetic laboratory group.

    We also have the Ottoman census of 1887 showing the Palestinian demographics consisting of some 430 000 Muslims, 80 000 Christians and 10 000 Jews. Yet you suggest, contrary to the avalanche of evidence from varying disciplines, that those 430 000 Muslims had no relation to the Jews who did not partake in the diaspora, but were Turks, Arabs, and Egyptians etc who filtered in. Of course there was such an infiltration. That is absolutely normal.

    All the evidence collectively points in the exact same direction – The modern Palestinians, like the Jews, have admixtures of other people in their genetic make-up, but their dominant source is that of Jews and Christain Jews who did not take part in the diaspora and underwent various successive conversions

    Why do you ignore this plethora of referenced and verifiable evidence? Don't bother to respond. We are totally aware of the reasons.
     
  14. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Although I disagree with the way that my online friend worded the following message.........I agree with him that a new relationship with the nation of Jordan could be the key to peace between Israelis and Palestinians:


    Reuven Kossover:



    It is amazing how well Mr. Kossover's theory fits with the NDE of Dannion Brinkley!!!!!

    Dannion Brinkley:
    ......................
     
  15. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What do you think of this article Klipkap?

    http://www.hebrewidentity.org/en/?page_id=157
    Who is a Palestinian?
     
  16. klipkap

    klipkap Well-Known Member

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    Very interesting, Dennis. The logic is impeccable and the examples are entirely relevant.

    So .... that makes the Jewish squatters in the Palestinian Authority territory .... Palestinians. VERY interesting!!
     
  17. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    Squatters?????????????????????????????????
    That shows how much you know, how much you project, how much you influence,
    how much you scuttle in your own theories...


    Who are the REAL Palestinians?

    Who are really the so-called "Palestinians?"

    WE are, WE the Jews are the REAL Palestinians.
    Is this historically correct? Well the Jews conquered the land of Israel that was given to them by Divine right. They took over from the Canaanites and other tribes who had lived there before but, instead of wiping them out, as some accounts would have it, the Jews completely absorbed those peoples. This is evidenced by the many pagan rites and rituals that were practiced in the land throughout the period of the two kingdoms. And so when the Assyrians and Babylonians came along, all they found was Jews because Canaanites and others all became part of the Jewish people. And so, in addition to Divine mandate we have the argument that we are the indigenous people of the land.

    Then, as the book of Kings shows, the Assyrians settled the land of Israel with all manners of Gentile peoples from southern Turkey, northern Syria, and Lebanon. These peoples converted to a rudimentary form of Judaism, which also permitted pagan rites, but over time it became more monotheistic.

    These people became known as Samaritans and they vied with the Jews for control of the land much as the newcomers we call Palestinians do today.

    Then the Greeks took over the land and settled it with Hellenized Syrians (not Arabs) and Egyptians (not Arabs). And so now we had Jews, Greeks, and Samaritans all living in the land.

    Then came the Romans who destroyed Jewish sovereignty but even after they did, the composition of the land stayed the same - Jews, Greeks, and Samaritans.

    Then the Roman Empire became Christian and they imposed Christianity on the empire. The entire Greek community, the majority of the Samaritans, and a few Jews converted to Christianity.

    Then came the Arabs (who pushed on from ARABIA) who took the land away from the Romans (Called Byzantine by this time.) and they imposed the Jizyah and Kharaj tax. This caused most of the Greeks and almost all of the remaining Samaritans (A tiny remnant has persisted to this day.) to convert to Islam and to intermarry with the Arab newcomers. The identity of these people switched from Greek to Arab. This happened for the Arab Christians too though they retained their Christianity. But the Jews did not see themselves as Arab because the element of Jewish nationhood is an integral part of our religion whilst Islam and Christianity are religions but not nations as well.

    Then the Arab Empire crumbled into separate sultanates that also crumbled and along came invaders of all types including the Mongols. But the Mongols were driven back by the Mamelukes who took over the land. Then the Seljuk’s who were conquered by the Crusaders conquered the Mamelukes. The Crusaders converted many Arabs to Christianity and though they decimated the Jewish community, small Jewish communities remained.
    Then the Ottomans who came to a ruined land torn apart by wars ousted the Crusaders and invasions and they set up a system of serfdom, which caused the Arab fellahin or peasants to sink into ever-greater debts. This caused deforestation to occur as peasants sought to pay debts and herds increased beyond the capacity of the land to support them. All this caused the topsoil to wash away. And the land became barren and denuded. Without watersheds, the water all flowed into the valleys and depressions creating swamps (There had always been some swamps but not THIS many.). The swamps bred typhus and malaria, which spread to the people and because of all forces the population of the land of Israel, from the 1500s to the 1830s declined.

    But the Jewish population did not because the Jews did not own any land and did not have to pay the terrible taxes. The Jews all lived in the larger towns where they were small shopkeepers and scholars and lived a meager life supported by money from throughout the Jewish Diaspora. In fact the Jewish community increased as there were successive waves of immigration such as the immigration of 300 French and English rabbis in the 1200s, the immigration of refugees from Islamic persecutions in Morocco in the late 1200s, many exiles from Spain and Portugal in the 1500s, Yemenite Jews in the 1600s, Hassidic Jews from Poland in the 1700s, Mitnagdim Jews from Lithuania in the early 1800s, and smaller Sephardic movements at the same time.

    Then in the 1830s a war between Egypt and the Ottomans brought large numbers of Egyptian (now called Arabs after the upsurge of Islam from ARABIA in the 7th Century CE) soldiers to Palestine where they were given land. These Egyptians Arabs established many towns in the Galilee and the Judean Hills. Then Muslim Turks settled in Jaffa conducting business. The Ottomans brought in many thousands of Syrian Arabs and Lebanese (Christian and Arab) workers to build the railroads. Refugees from a failed revolution against France in Iraq, Muslim refugees from Russia, Kurds, and Bosnians settled in Israel too.

    Then came the Jewish returnees to their Patrimony "Israel" who employed the fellahin. Therefore, many tens of thousands of Arabs poured into Israel from Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt looking for work. This immigration continued throughout the British period unabated even as the British sharply restricted Jewish immigration.

    Then after the war of independence Jews poured in to their homeland that they had been attached to and had longed for throughout the ages and to which they were entitled by Divine right.

    All of this has been well documented in history... and some of my old posts...
    SO WHO ARE THE REAL PALESTINIANS? A hybrid mixture of Syrian, Lebanese, Iraqi, and Egyptian people with strong mixes of Kurds, Circassian, Algerian, Bosnians, and Arabian, as well as a bit of remnant old blood from the mixed Arab, Greek, and Samaritan? A mish mash of people with no language, identity, or culture of their own that has no historical ties apart from migrations, to this particular land, and certainly no religious ties? A people who can claim no divine deed?

    Or is it a people who have had a connection with the land, a yearning for the land and a love for the land for over 2,000 years? A people with Divine deed to the land? A people in whose very veins the blood of the land's aboriginal and other similar populations runs? And not just ANY people but the VERY people who gave the world democracy, justice, and monotheism and who liberated the human mind from the narrow confines of idolatry, a people who has been at the forefront of civilization and all liberating movements (as well as some not so liberating, but hey we all make mistakes don’t we?) in the history of the world?

    Which is it? WHO are the real Palestinians? WE ARE! THE JEWS ARE THE REAL PALESTINIANS AND ENTITLED TO THE ENTIRE LAND.

    The hybrids who we often refer to as Palestinians may stay and live with us if they agree to live by our laws and to be loyal citizens and if they do NOTHING to threaten the hegemony of the true Palestinians to Palestine. They may have complete freedom of movement, religion, economy, and all the benefits of living in the state of the true Palestinians. But any of them who choose to threaten the hegemony of the true Palestinians over Palestine may go elsewhere. Indeed, the true Palestinians have graciously provided for any hybrids that want to live in a hybrid state. It is called "Jordan", and as a tribute to the generosity of the true Palestinians it is a much larger piece of Palestine than the piece we keep for ourselves.(77% vs 23%)

    The true Palestinians is the ONLY people entitled to this land though. And it is only our generosity that keeps us from taking Jordan, which is also rightfully, ours.

    WE ARE THE TRUE PALESTINIANS. AND WE HAVE NOTHING TO APOLOGIZE FOR!

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !!!
     
  18. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    HBendor.......this point that the twelve tribes absorbed the surviving Caananites, Philistines, Hittites and other inhabitants of the land...........is very interesting indeed!!!!!!!!!!!!!????

    Amo 9:9



    "For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as [corn] is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth."

    It seems that even having 1% to 5% DNA going back to the 12 patriarchs......is relevant to G-d!!!!!!!??

    I am not saying that DNA makes somebody Jewish......Judaism is a religion primarily.......but it is like having DNA from the Patriarch Judah or any of the lost tribes....sets in motion a series of events that will eventually lead to restoration of some sort!!!!

    I am almost certain HBendor that you will find this writing by Mr. Reuven Kossover to be rather interesting.......

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/reuv...ffset=0&total_comments=122&notif_t=note_reply

    The Kossover Plan for the Reunification of the Hebrew People
     
  19. klipkap

    klipkap Well-Known Member

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    For millennia there has been conflict between the Jewish and the Samaritan versions as to the origin of the Samaritans. Your post above confirms this bias and intolerance because you have produced only the Jewish version which downplays, for obvious reasons, the link of the Samaritans to the promised land. It does so in exactly the same way that the Jews attempt to downplay the Palestinian link to the Promised Land by falsely manipulating demographic data, by misquoting from official records, and by fabricating data regarding large-scale immigrations. It is nothing new.

    In support of this let me quote http://www.anthrobase.com/Txt/I/Ireton_S_01.htm :
    The Samaritan version of their own origins is that they stemmed from the Northern Israelite tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh, who survived the destruction of the Northern Kingdom of Israel by the Assyrians in 722 BCE - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans The Jewish versions - derived from Kings 2 which you supply, is contradicted by that of Chronicles “where
    But much of this is irrelevant because the bulk of the Samaritans were eliminated in the 17th C. Only the Palestinians of Nablus are now believed to be directly related to Samaritans
    Supplying only one version of historical views is called cherry-picking.

    So much for your attempted rebuttal supposedly showing that the "mongrel / immigrant" nature (not) of the Samaritans disproves that the Palestinians, like the Jews are related to the ancestral occupiers of "the Promised Land". MYTH BUSTED!!!

    But back to the theme of your post. Of course the Jews are the real Palestinians I have said so all along. Just like the modern Palestinians the original "Holy Land" genes in the Jews have been heavily diluted by those of other peoples, particularly Southern Mediterranean, Khazarian and Germanic peoples.But there is one major difference between the modern Palestinians and the Jews.

    The Palestinians did not take a leave-of-absence for 2000 years and then return and speciously claim that THEY had sole entitlement to the land based on ancient history, disenfranchising those who had remained behind for all this time by using cherry-picking, false logic and invented data.

    [… to be continued ...]
     
  20. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I just found the following video......am downloading it right now......but since it is by Mr. Misinai I am positive it is going to be really good!!!!

    http://vimeo.com/37886776


     
  21. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    I can't get any audio on that video, but I agree with him.. The Diaspora began more than 300 years before Christ. You can look into the Jewish populations that settled in Egypt and North Africa.. Alexandria, Rome and around the Mediterranean.. Those who settled in what is now Iran and Iraq.
     
  22. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    The audio is bad... In fact in history no one should generalize... the fact is that some Arabs were evidently previous Jews... does not make it an Arab Nation.

    WHO ARE THE PALESTINIANS? WHAT & WHERE IS PALESTINE?
    ~HBendor

    There is a preliminary historical fact that must be established now. There has never, I repeat NEVER, been a civilization or a nation referred to as "Palestine" and the very notion of a "Palestinian" Arab NATION having ancient attachments to the Holy Land going back to time immemorial is one of the biggest hoaxes ever perpetrated upon the world!

    There is, nor has there EVER been a distinct Palestinian culture or language. Further, there has never been a Palestinian State governed by ARAB Palestinians in history, nor was there ever a Palestinian national movement until after the 1967 Six-Day War, when Israel regained control over Judea and Samaria (the so-called "West Bank").

    It was then, and only then, that a Palestinian national movement was born with one primary goal: the creation of an Arab Palestinian State with which to replace Israel.

    It's that simple!
    Israel became a nation in 1312 BCE, two thousand years BEFORE the rise of Islam!

    Seven hundred and twenty-six years later in 586 BCE, these first ancient Jews were overrun and its First Jewish Temple (on today's Temple Mount!) was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, king of ancient Babylon. Many of the Jews were killed or expelled; however many were allowed to remain. These Jews along with their progeny and other Jews who would resettle over the next 500 years, rebuilt the Nation of Israel. Thus the claim that Jews suddenly appeared fifty three years ago right after the Holocaust and drove out the "ancient Arab Palestinians" is preposterous!

    Then in 70 CE (nearly 2000 years ago), it was the Roman Empire's turn to march through ancient Israel and destroy the SECOND Jewish Temple, slaughtering or driving out much of its Jewish population. Many Jews left on their own because conditions for life were made unbearable in many respects, yet thousands and thousands stayed and rebelled on for centuries in order to once again rebuild a Jewish Nation in this Holy Land.

    Over these next 2,000 years various Peoples, Religions and Empires have marched through Jerusalem, Israel's ancient capital. None bothered, nor were in the least interested in, building a Nation of their own. Included in these "invaders" were the Arabs. Thus in the year 636CE Arab marauders came to the land and uprooted even more of its Jews. However, they too did NOT form an Arab nation... and certainly NOT a "Palestinian" nation. Moreover, remember this one fact... it was not the Jews who "usurped" (a favorite word from the Arab propagandists) the land from the Arabs. If anything, it was the Arabs in 636CE who overran and stole it from the Jews!

    In Conclusion: No nation, other than the ancient nations of Israel and later the Reconstituted Nation of Israel in 1948, has ever ruled as a sovereign national entity on this land.

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !!!
     
  23. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Around 6 minutes in the film the audio improves greatly and at 7:50 seconds a fascinating statement is made that the Israelis now have testimony from a former bodyguard of Mr. Yassar Arafat that he had been prepared to kill Mr. Arafat if any sort of agreement at been signed by Arafat at Camp David!!!!!!!!

    That is one seriously heavy aspect of history that should be deeply considered!!!
     
  24. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree......and Margot......what do you personally think of the theory that members of the tribes of Reuben and Levi may have went all the way to South America at the time of King Solomon!!!!!??

    http://moshiach.com/tribes/ns/6.html
     
  25. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    arabs have ruled palestine longer than jews did.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Arabs were the majority population of Palestine for more than 1,600 years.

    The Jews? Only 900 years.
     

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