Thank you for rushing to prove my point. As you may have guessed from my post Im well aware that the Bible offers different and sometimes conflicting viewpoints on most issues (and often more than just two). Now go and read up about Biblical hermeneutics while Felicity may want to inform herself on Quranic hermeneutics.
Sorry about the late response, haven't been able to reply until now. The best we can do is just ignore them. The ignore list "minimizes" their posts, so it helps a little. The Arab culture was very oral, which I believe was one reason the Quran was revealed in such a peotic style. Poetry was well respected among the Arabs. Also, it helps with memorizing it in Arabic. That's from my understanding of it at least. But that was an interesting read. Unfortunately I do not know enough about this to comment on it too much. Perhaps. Again, this is a topic which I need to do much more research in before responding to. This is the first time I've heard of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, for example. I looked up the author, Mohamed Ghilan. If it is the same person he is a very educated man so while there may be some bias he also knows much more about the subject than I. Something I know more about haha Hmm.. Okay.While the Mogol invasion did play a part in it, but the Ottoman Empire was strife with internal issues and corruption. I think the fall of the Muslim civilization is due to the rise of nationalism. While the Ottoman Empire wasn't perfect, it kept Saudi Salafism away for the most part and also kept this part of the world quite stable. Stability is important for civilizations to thrive. The fall of the Ottoman Empire and resulting "colonizations" of the lands help to promote the already growing feeling of nationalism among the people in the region. And now, Salafism (a sect of Islam which hypocritically forbids innovations while they themselves partake in them) is widespread through the region. The mix of nationalism and Salafism has caused many problems for the region... Add with that Western meddling (I am not only blaming the West here) and the region is a powderkeg... It does not provide the greatest environment for educational development. Which is why I support the re-establishment of a Khalifat. I think that is the best chance for a stable and productive Middle East not the "War on Terror". That said, there were still scientific contributions during the Ottomans Empires existence. I haven't heard of any Muslim-pagan problems. To be fair, I've never considered looking it up, but I would be surprised. There isn't really a way to tell if somebody is a pagan or not. So I don't see how there can be an issue? Hinduism is a polytheistic religion but there are not widespread wars between Hindus and Muslims. The reason for animosity between Muslims and pagans (if there is any today) is due to the history of Islam, and what the Quraysh put the Muslims through. But in general there is no reason to think there will be violence against pagans in the US. No worries! I don't think you are trolling. Admittedly I know more about the religious aspects of Islam rather than the politics of past Empires, and I don't have the time right now to look into them very much, so I apologize if my answers aren't thorough enough on those topics.
Actually I really appreciate the input from you, dairyair, and Junobet among others in this thread. And alif Qadr when he is here.
Nope you don's sound harsh. Quite a ways from that. Still no answer how belief = absolute truth? 3 strikes, you're out.
If the bible was clear on those questions, we'd only have 1 version of christianity. And if God's written word was absolutely clear, we wouldn't have 100s of religions.
That's fine. The beginning of true wisdom is not the admission of how much we know but how much we do not know. I'm on a learning curve myself on what Islam is all about. I tend to go with first principles rather than relying on established dogma. Sometimes I make connections to ideas that a person with a more dogmatic view might not make. When I read Ghilan's discussion on how learning the Quran may have stimulated the Arabic mind I immediately thought of Sapir-Whorf. Whether that connection is really there is of course open to question. But the evidence is a great burst of creativity at the time after the prophet Muhammed. But then something changed and a force for world progress sputtered out especially in the sciences. Today Muslim scientific inquiry is known by its near absence. This is important. The Muslim world was not made up of jungle nations in grass skirts wielding spears. They were literate and sophisticated with natural and human resources with few equals. And yet while a tiny nation like Shinto Japan with fewer resources made the transition from feudal samuri to telegraphs, steel mills, and iron battleships in 50 years the Muslim Ottoman Empire couldn't do it in the centuries it confronted the European Imperialist threat. And it isn't as if industrialism and science were state secrets. They were available in the books pouring out of steam powered European and American printing presses. Even tradition bound Confucian China, after a rocky start, has become a nuclear superpower. But the Muslim world at the same time has been chopped up like a side of beef. Even 50 years after European direct control ended the Muslim world remains caught in a nightmare of bad leaders, internal fighting, and poverty. Those few who benefit from oil make little effort to build a sustainable industrial and social infrastructure after the oil is gone. What's going on. I'm glad you brought up Salafism. My wiki search connected it with Wahhabism then Athari and finally to Ashʿari. Obviously the Turks were largely Hanafi which was somewhat more rationalist than the Salafi who were committed more to occasionalism. Big difference! For the rest of people here rationalism posits that a fire applied to a cotton ball will cause the ball to burn because God (Allah) has created laws in the universe that will cause that to happen, laws that can be discovered and understood through experimentation. Occasionalism posits that each event is distinct and separate and a product of Gods will. The fire burns because of Gods will. The cotton ball burns because it is Gods will. Heck, even the hand that moves the fire to the cotton is Gods will. This may be meaningless to Mr and Mrs Joe Blow but it rips the guts out of scientific inquiry because there is no cause and effect except for Gods will. Science becomes a pointless and heretical exercise because tomorrow God may change his mind and turn the cotton ball into an ice cube. Some guy named Abu al-Hasan al-Ash'ari preached it in the ninth century and 11th century philosopher Abu Hamid Muhammad ibn Muhammad al-Ghazali popularized it in a book called The Incoherence of the Philosophers. Eventually it smothered Muʿtazilah which is an Islamic school of theology based on reason and rational thought. Muslim science and industry continued but it became a downward slide for the Ottomans. By the time James Watt built his first steam engine it was pretty much over. The European factories that pumped out steam ironclads and machine guns just hammered the last nail in the coffin. Why is that important today? Because the Arab spring is continuing to spread. Many young Muslims are the majority of that fight. My assessment is that many are fed up with the traditional ways of thinking. Elder wisdom just isn't what it used to be. They want something that makes sense in the modern world. Do you as a Muslim see honest critique among Muslims themselves? Maybe changing back for real to a more progressive Muslim way of looking at things? Or are you all gonna end up passing out copies of the Watchtower. Well we'd better hope there's no widespread war since both Pakistan and India have nukes. MAD. As far as Pagans and Muslims, since there are only 7 million here in the US it's doubtful we'll see them packed in the Supreme Court soon. The more important issue is whether committed Muslims can comfortably see a secular social and political nation as natural and desirable or whether they will always push for a theologically Muslim dominant world. You mentioned a Caliphate. I'm not sure if that will fix the problem, especially if he's a Wahhabi. Turkey is a model for a secular society. Not perfect but adequate. Sadly everyone hates the Turks. If the Caliphate was subject to limitations on it's civil power, much as the Pope in the Vatican, and even the God-Emperor in Japan I think it might be part of the solution. It would really be nice if the first fatwa from the new Caliph would be for the faithful to return to the Hanafi school of law. Of course that could also blow the whole thing up. Just my opinion. That's fine. Thanks for the conversation. A forum is supposed to be about exchanging ideas not bigotry and hate. Blessed Be.
With the exception of the well to do, Sharia has removed women from the man's world, especially in regard to the single young men. As every mother knows, it has always been some pretty face that came around, just at the right moment, to rouse her son(s) into earnest productive work or studious attention to getting credentials or a skill. This incentive is sadly lacking in Islam, where the average age before marriage is 26, (and at least technically, before sex with girls, at least). This idea that the "carrot" is not before the horse in Muslim nations may at first seem simplistic, but by comparison with what the Western market place produces, i.e., things that women want, we can seethe commerce that transforms labor into gifts and goods/services that are enormously weighted toward the feminine aspects of the society and the homes they fill up with things in exchange for feminine attentions.
Cupid, like always, your posts have a wandering free association appearance that reveal more about the confused state of your mind than the subject matter you address. How many hits do you usually take before you post?
Hmmm,... If you check, its clear that many people "like" what I say more often than not. There are those (like yourself) who try to dismiss my points by tagging me "misogynist," "homophobic," or "acentric" as you do here. But IMO, I offer a perspective which tends to straddle the two opposing views that are so often an expression of a social dialectic in action already.
On the essentials Christiands agree, it is the superflous that creates denominations. Most are silly divisions because they build a theology over minute things. Its is very diverse and would take days, nay, years to disect them all. Myself, I try to keep what the Bible says as what the Bible says and try not read things it does not say to make it fit some idea or preference to suit myself. I make every effort to be authentic.
I explained this to Dairyair before, but he returns to this vomit, (which is so often used as an argument to demonstrate that the Bible can't be valid nor correct). Because, they say, everyone understands what it says slightly differently "the Bible is not clear." The logic follows on the heels of that accusation, that this means what is written must be so general no one can be sure what was meant by the writers. ..."if God's written word was absolutely clear, we wouldn't have 100s of religions." The simplest response is that all the present interpretations are just wrong, and we are in fact, like students, awaiting the great teacher who shall come and explain the book to us all. Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
For one reason: They represent an example of one of the basic tenets of the message of the scriptures. To wit: mankind comes in a dozen different "flavors" or ways of thinking. Like the 12 Tribes or the 12 apostles, it has been confirmed by the science of Modern Psychology. This idea of a dozen or so human perspectives simultaneously existing has been used now by organizations like eHarmony and Public Education to our advantage. Psychological Surveys, like the Myers/Briggs Types Test, identify us and the way we think which explains why the dozen of so major denominational Christian religious organizations exist and have slightly different perceptions about the meanings of the same book they all have studied: A second reason is that part of the Bible message is to explain human behavior and to demonstrate empirically, through what has been called prophecy, that human behavior allowed to run amuck, unfettered by men trying to understand themselves and one another, will affect the Sociology that writes future History. A third reason is that understanding ourselves will change the world and bring about peace: 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, (genetics), clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, (male and female), was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of (human) fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse:
Right. Exactly. Vomit, I agree. So religions who teach, study, and interpret the scriptures by major religions are "just wrong". But somehow, you have the magic decoder key and your interpretations are the correct ones. Well, why don't you ask Never Left some questions and see if you 2 agree on 5 things. - - - Updated - - - What are 10 or 5 essentials they all agree on? Lets keep it simple.
The Prophet said, "None of you will have faith till he wishes for his (Muslim) brother what he likes for himself."
Can we wish for all brothers what we like for ourselves, or does it only apply to Muslims? Is that Muslims wishing for Muslims, or other? Who is "you" in that quote?
Allah's Messenger () said, "Fasting is a shield (or a screen or a shelter). So, the person observing fasting should avoid sexual relation with his wife and should not behave foolishly and impudently, and if somebody fights with him or abuses him, he should tell him twice, 'I am fasting." The Prophet () added, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, the smell coming out from the mouth of a fasting person is better in the sight of Allah than the smell of musk. (Allah says about the fasting person), 'He has left his food, drink and desires for My sake. The fast is for Me. So I will reward (the fasting person) for it and the reward of good deeds is multiplied ten times." - - - Updated - - - Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
Awaiting the official announcement on whether or not Eid ul-Fitr will be on Thursday or Friday. Until that, another Hadith about sawm (fasting): The Prophet () said, "Whoever established prayers on the night of Qadr out of sincere faith and hoping for a reward from Allah, then all his previous sins will be forgiven; and whoever fasts in the month of Ramadan out of sincere faith, and hoping for a reward from Allah, then all his previous sins will be forgiven." Sahih al-Bukhari 1901, Book 30, Hadith 11
So Eid ul-Fitr will be tomorrow... unfortunate because I work tomorrow but an early Eid Mubarak to all!
