from year 1536 until 1798 , the OE have been a client state of a jig-saw puzzle France ps and believe me the Ottomans had more problem with separatism then Frenchman had ...
Meh, Yeah for like 100 years Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth was the strongest nation entity in the continent. The Ottomans were a great opportunity for nations tired of the Byzantine constant civil war & taxes , the Mamluke 1 day kings and the assassins , the constant threat Hungary posed to the northern Balkans, the Genoan- Venetian looting of the land and the Hapsburg usurpers . The Ottomans helped locals to preserve their culture by kicking popist dogs and their cronies out. About the whole "islamic" thing from what i remember the Sultan refused to turn the empire into a copy of the Caliphate because "they were Romans now" . Without the Ottomans there would be no Austrian empire and no renaissance and who the hell knows where Russia's borders would have reached.
majority of Intellectuals ´d rather choose Union with a Pope then Muslim oppression, rape, and blood tax for centuries... ))) really? " no Austrian empire and no renaissance" how so? "Russia's borders" or GDL´s borders , or the ERE´s borders , or Hungarians...just empty speculations ...
Muslim oppression ? Ottomans had freedom of religion and force converting meant lesser taxes . Bohemian and Hungarian (Janos Hunyady?) king died while fighting the Ottos and this is how Austria inherited the crowns Renaissance would have been impossible without all the books Greek aristocrats brought with them in the west You think Russia wouldn't have taken the Balkans if Crimeans didn't had Otto support?
only those who subjugated to them Greeks, Bosniaks, Albanians, etc. Montenegrins did not..., ask them how tolerant have been Ottomans to them . if-History ? maybe Austrians´d take Bavaria instead? i think it has to more with "free" money then eastern roman books , both parts of Europe have had the tight contacts even before 1453 Russia (Muscovy) came close to Balkans only in 18 c. when CT have passed their Prime time. would The Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth be interested in Balkans i dont know. i hope not)
Christians were subjugated , if you think the Ottomans were only Turks go read who fought against who in siege of Malta , even the general in the siege of Vienna was Greek . Carl tried to open Sunday schools but there was no books to teach, those books arrived only after 1204 and 1453 , money always were there while knowledge was not renaissance was the re-invention of the GrecoRoman world that was preserved in ERE . I was not talking about Russians expanding their land borders but think what would happen if Crimean Khanatte didn't had Otto support.
no i dont think so . but the Turkish tribes have never lost control over situation Link? agreed think what would happen if Crimean sex-traffickers and terrorist Khanatte didn't had Otto support, but instead Otto ´d decide to make business with the biggest European country (The Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth)....
What do you mean to say? Ottoman Empire was a creature of his era and such conflicts between rival feudal kings was very usual and ordinary to era.... On the other hand those people who were resettled to different parts of Anatolia and Balkans were relatives of Karamanid İbrahim bey but not the whole population principality...
my point is that the OE was not an example of tolerance and consistence.. i am against the both narratives 1) demonization of the OE 2) canonization of the OE. " Karamanid İbrahim bey but not the whole population principality " are you sure about it? http://tuvalu.santafe.edu/~phooper/thesis_condensed.pdf look like the Ottoman sultans were very keen on ethnic cleansing
Dear Litwin Every imperial state did same relocations and forced population transfers for some reasons such as economical needs,security,reconstruction,urabanization,revival of conqeured lands etc..... You should note that those repopulations of places or forced population transfers or relocations are something completely different from ethnic cleansing.... That senior thesis which prepared by Paul Lovell Hooper from Princeton University is a very scientific evidince of this fact.It is very qualified study.I recommend you read it completely.... I'm sure you can see the methods,implementations and reasons of those relocations..... ) ) / ) ) / ) . 9
Duh ! Can you name any previous empire which was an example of tolerance+ consistence . ? Re - what we today call "ethnic cleansing " was the norm since BC + AD right into the Europe's 2th century by Eastern Orthodox Christian Serbs etc. in former Yugoslavia . i.e. "Bosnian Genocide at Srebrenica and Žepa committed by Bosnian Serb forces in 1995 or the ethnic cleansing campaign throughout areas controlled by the Army of the Republika Srpska under the command of General Ratko Mladić. The ethnic cleansing campaign took place throughout areas controlled by the VRS targeted Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats. The ethnic cleansing campaign included unlawful confinement, murder, rape, sexual assault, torture, beating, robbery and inhumane treatment of civilians; the targeting of political leaders, intellectuals and professionals; the unlawful deportation and transfer of civilians; the unlawful shelling of civilians; the unlawful appropriation and plunder of real and personal property; the destruction of homes and businesses; and the destruction of places of worship. ------- Looks like neither side can claim the moral high ground . (wink) .....
Today,,, even in a tiny peace of land such as Israel,Nagorno-Karabakh,Lebanon,or Syria etc people choking each other's throat... How can an İntolerant state can last for 600 years? No supression/opression can last for 600 years...
here is my empire http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Lithuania. and now please find in the GDL history similar cases of genocide http://tuvalu.santafe.edu/~phooper/thesis_condensed.pdf th Serbian state is still the most multinational state of all Balkan states (Gypsies , Albanians, Hungarians, Bosniaks) . do you still believe in NATO war propaganda?
Lithuanians have an historical burden of active complicity in the holocaust. While there is no longer a significant Jewish population in post World War II Lithuania to sour ethnic relations, it would not be possible to appeal to some cultural propensity towards ethnic toleration and peace.5 And with the reconquest of Lithuania by the Soviet army in 1944, and amid the subsequent deportation of an estimated 350,000 titulars, Lithuanians organized an insurgency against Soviet power (listed in the dataset as a civil war in the USSR), showing if anything a propensity to violence. Hatred of Jews and possibly Russians as well has been a recurrent theme in modern Lithuanian history. http://http://www.stanford.edu/group/ethnic/Random%20Narratives/LithuaniaRN1.3.pdf Ancient Hatreds and the Poles The historical sources of Lithuanian grievances against the Poles go back to the Modern Hatreds and the Poles http://http://www.stanford.edu/group/ethnic/Random%20Narratives/LithuaniaRN1.3.pdf
i ll answer you later , i have question :what can you say about the "Ottoman dynasty" ,tribe, nationality ,etc
Up to my knowledge.. They were originally a Turkoman Tribe but they made a lot of marriages with other neighbour dynasties such as Greek,BulgarianRussian,Arabic etc... Just like any other dynasties did...
question was about the the GDL not about Lietuvos Respublika(Aukštaitian state), - - - Updated - - - which tribe(s)? was it any sultan "outsider"?
i never said that it was "an İntolerant state " very good question , 1)from the end of XV c the OE has lost its strategical-importance, it became a corner of the world 2) France was the most powerful county and the OE patron much like Israel today 3) It was surrendered only by 2 class powers until end of XVIII c. i have question to you: could TR (with out USA support and cold war) survive through XX c ?
I couldn't get what do you exactly asking about Ottoman Family? Could you please clarify it? At the beginning of 13.th century Ottoman Family were only leader of a Turkoman Tribe/ a small state,In time, they became a dynasty.
Survive??? Dont you think ''the word to survive'' is a little bit exeggerated? Which American support ? We paid the price whatever we bought from USA or any other country..
from 18 c to last days of OE you have lost all wars against Moscovites. Porte´s diplomacy did what ,your army could not. i talk about political support (war on kurds, left , etc.) - - - Updated - - - what was the name of this tribe? and where did they come form?
They came from where all Turkoman tribes came, first from Middle Asia(especially from Turkmenistan) to İran/Caucasus/Mesopotamia and then to Anatolia....This trip took hundreds of years.... Their name was Osmanoğulları(sons of Osman).Osman was their grandfather and at the same time he is founder of Ottoman Empire. in most European language it is written as Ottomans...
