Hiya, Wikileaks gives us some info about the trade agreements being negotiated in secret, in our interests naturally. https://wikileaks.org/tpp/pressrelease.html https://wikileaks.org/tpp/
I am a little put out by this entire ordeal. I am completely positive that ALL trade agreement negotiations are kept confidential, but WIKILEAKS have decided they are secret. And put the word SECRET into anything it is just like SPYING meaningless but to those who want to make some sort of big deal out of nothing. BUT as the trade negotiations were announced before they began by the US president Obama while visiting Australia (look to the Hansard of his parliamentary speech) I don't see anything that would mean they were secret. Is it the fact you did not know they were happening??? Is it the fact that those outside the trade agreement are not party to such negotiations??? Frankly I am not really sure what the fuss is... You have not said anything but promoted the WIKILEAKS press release and posted links to them. Is this some sort of special deal that you have with WIKILEAKS to promote their site??? I am at a loss as to what you are objecting too.
Considering the Government represents the people of Australia, and free trade agreements will effect every Australia, not just 300 politicians. Politicians/Government have a responsibility to tell the people of Australia when the free trade talks are happening and everything about the trade agreements for public approval before the deals are signed. Government/politicians should not have cart blanch in these matters that will effect 20 million Australians. After all, politicians/Government ARE suppose to be representing what the Australian people want, and what‘s in the best interest of the Australian people, not what politicians want and in the best interests of politicians.
Well that would be interesting if this was not simply the negotiation stage, while many consider they need to hang off every word said in government discussions, it really would be boring and actually flood the senses with needless and useless crap that really is irrelevant. As the republic debate, where a simple question turned the entire issue on its head. Fact is, you and I or anybody else does not need to know what is said in negotiations for any trade agreement. Once negotiations are complete and an agreement is actually sort, then YES, Australians need to know what is in it and (for those that are not stuck with being told what to think) consider if it is good for Australia or bad. All trade agreements have to pass before parliament in detail before they can simply sign them, as they are representing the people of Australia.’ Negotiations’ are talking about the content of those deals. FFS, do you even know how big one of those agreements are??? A bloody newspaper would take days just to print it for your perusal and frankly years to comment on the complete agreement. BUT you’re NOT complaining that you know nothing about an agreement, YOU’RE complaining you know nothing about talks about making and agreement. BUT, negotiations are always occurring. Do you really think because you are unaware of what they are or when they occur, they are secret??? I am a little perplexed, Australians elect people to represent them in these types of matters and now it is OH SECRET NEGOTIATIONS. Frankly it just begs belief. COME ON PEOPLE, THERE HAS TO BE MORE THAN MEDIA DRIBBLE TO TALK ABOUT.
Yes we can talk rape allegations, oh, they are media allegations too, social media. But you are happy to discuss those.
The VICTIM made the allegations DV... Gee bud you really have gone a bit soft in the head of late... Must be that huge bowl of sour grapes you have been munching on.
I am so sorry, but this thread has nothing to do with the thread about the rape allegations, so I do consider your trolling to be stupid and not contributing to the thread. Again as in the spying thread this is not about Secret negotiations, it is about negotiations that these people did not know occurred and decided to claim as being something it is not. Unlike the Rape allegations which is being investigated. This thread is about the obvious idea that the ORIGINAL poster knew nothing of such negotiations and considers they should have. I knew but saw no reason it would make any news as these discussions have been occurring for some time and are constantly referred too in parliament. Again, check the Hansard for evidence I could not be bothered. BUT all that aside, why does anybody believe they need to know what people are saying in every single meeting??? As stated, this is only considered SECRET because somebody reported it as SECRET NEGOTIATIONS. Even the document posted states it is confidential NOT secret. So this THREAD is based entirely on the fact that:- A. The originator did not know the negotiations were occurring B. A group who consider themselves as a media organisation reported them as being SECRET C. People who originally claim media bias, and should not be listen too, as being a great source. Now while you sit there and say "this come from WIKILEAKS", this has been floating around the Australian media for near a week. In both instances, I am discussing the hypocrisy of particular posters. Nothing in either thread has been provided as evidence of anything, JUST MEDIA REPORTS. Fact is while, you post to incriminate a person and pass off far worse allegations on your own party official, and here you want to claim I am supporting the media stupidity. You claim to be a person with higher educational standards than most... Oh by the way, these discussions were originated by the ALP, NOT by the Coalition, so maybe you should be condemning your illustrious leader. BUT no, it will be the Coalition you want to blame. Again that hypocrisy stands out.
In all sincerity, how many Australians really new what the contents of the FTA between Australian and the USA contained, until after the negotiating happened and the deal was signed by politicians? Yes, politicians are suppose to represent the people of Australia in FTA negotiations, but as we all know, the people of Australia are not always the beneficiaries of the best deals in these FTA’s. The Australian people got bent over, and plundered up the arse like an alley whore, in relations to the FTA with the USA - thanks to Australian politicians negotiating on their behalf. Maybe the secret underhanded negotiations is something of concern, considering the previous FTA outcomes for the Australian people.
Actually many did, Those who saw issue did publicise those issues, Including the Cotton industry, the banana industry and the livestock industry. Fact is the problem with the entire agreement is that Australia opens its markets unreservedly to the US while the US creates a quota system then protections are involved ( I am sure you would be aware) but the size of those quotas is incredibly small. The particular groups look to these agreements to see what affects them AFTER negotiations are complete and an agreement is sort. The problem, as I see it is that you would like to be part of making up the agreement. Sure Australia gets the short end of the stick (and I do deplore that) BUT fact is Australia is the country in need of others services, money and assistance. Australia has to come in low, because Australia has very little to sell to other nations, at a competitive rate, that can be gained from other nations. If you note I point to the agricultural markets in the major objectors to the FTA with the US. In case you did not know, US manufacture considerably more of these markets and export to other nations Australia has no access too. If you think Australia is a great market place of the world you would be sadly mistaken, DUE entirely how uncompetitive Australia is. In fact before the great mining boom, Australia's main export partner was Iraq which brought partly to fund one of the cruellest regimes of the modern world. Think about it. Negotiations are not anything to be concerned about, as they have led to nothing as of yet. No agreement is being sort, they are negotiating to try and get some sort of agreement on what FTA should be sort. THIS could go for years. The fact still remains that it is no secret that these negotiations happen all the time. Australia is currently trying to negotiate with China a FTA which you know because the media have stated that Abbot's time frame is considerably reckless. Fact is this agreement has been in the negotiation stage since Howard, even that great foreign negotiator Rudd, everybody wants to hang their hat on, nearly destroyed with his comments to Clinton. This was the beginning of the fall of the foreign relations that everybody wants to lord as great achievement of RUDD. What a laugh. Did you know about those negotiations over the ten years they have been occurring??? How about those Japanese negotiations to renew the FTA??? What about the Middle East negotiations with Egypt and Israel??? Point is, there was nothing secret about the negotiations, that is simply a media ploy to sell the papers and news to the gullible because they have nothing to report because the government is not standing on the doorstep trying to lord their governance to the media in attempt to keep their job. Problem is that if they should not succeed with their policies then they will stand to the discredit of the nation. SO their actions need to be accounted for not their words as with the ALP, who considered their words stood for more than their actions
How far down on the ladder do you think on the ground farmers are, compared to the negotiators of FTAs? An average farmer has to go through 5 -6 people to get basis answers to questions regarding their livelihood. Each one of these people in the link might tell the other person they will get back to them with the answer within a week. It might take an average farmer between 4 -8 weeks to get an answer to a basic question regarding a Federal or State issues concerning their property or livelihood - especially questions concerning FTAs. Sometimes the farmers gets no answers at all. There was group of us (10) farmers very concerned about the FTA agreement between Australia and the USA, regrading the pork industry. We wrote five letters to our Industry representatives; local Federal member, and five to the Federal Industry Minister requesting information on the pork industry and its inclusion in the FTA. We knew Australia was going to allow the importation of pork products under the proposed FTA, but wanted to know if the USA was also going to include the importation of Australian pork in the FTA. We received NO correspondence or communication prior to the negotiations, nor while the negotiations were in progress. We only received notification after the FTA deal was signed, stating that the USA would not allow Australian pork products into the USA under the FTA. Yes. We need certain things from FTAs, and we have to relinquish certain things also considering our situation, but if we were not a stupid people in the first place by giving other lower cultures all our primary technology they can now use against us, then we would be bending over and taking it up the arse all the time like back alley whores, in a effort to protect ourselves. Give a person in a hut a gun to feed himself and his family, and he might just come to your house, and use that gun to kill you and your family, and take your house. Sometimes stupid do-gooder mentality is just that - stupid.
Yes, I know about the complaints of the pork industry as I have considerable communication with several of the biggest in the industry. As you clearly explain, you did not know about the issues you point too until after. Many did know about them and at the time, made as much noise as they could about such issues. The problem was that the industry seemed so divided on how to deal with this situation information was not forthcoming and usually incorrect. Many within the industry were not believed and were proven to be correct. You are correct on the detail of response and communications, BUT as the noise was riotous at the time BEFORE the FTA was signed this seemed to be more of a political stunt than an actual inquiry. As state those I have mentioned are of the farmers you state and they also made the same noises. However, they did not receive the same treatment as the pork industry, but they did come out worse off. The problem is that while you still consider that Australia is a great marketer of the world, the fact remains it is not. Australia has struggled to have any market globally and will do so while it has so many factors against it. I recall that after the FTA some concession was made but again the size was extremely limited. Fact remains; Australia is a consumer nation and not a manufacturing nation. If this is to change, the government and the unions need to realise that costs are one of the greatest reason as to why it has is losing its manufacturing base. People have to stop being greedy and demanding money for nothing and stop expecting the government to solve all their problems. The fact remains, these negotiations were not secret, and they were known about. Confidentiality needs to be maintained to assure that the agreement is made without third parties being able to turn them on their head before they even concluded. However, confidentiality does not stand for secret as reporting what one person observes to another does not stand for spying. As stated, this is a media starved of things to say, so they manufacture things to get people in, and it appears it has.
Bilateral trade agreements are just a boon for special interests. Multilateral is the way to go, they actually require trade rules that occasionally get somewhere in the vague vicinity of what you could possibly get away with loosely describing as "free trade". Idiots need to complete the Doha round already, ffs.
There should be transparency when it comes to trade agreements regardless of historical habits. In our new global economy international trade agreements are what dictate our future, the public has a right to know what their leaders are signing them onto. Unfortunately the links given on this thread don't shed much light on the actual specifics of the agreements. I agree with the sentiment of the OP though.
Well I would agree except, the problem seems that they are complaining that the negotiations are secret, NOT the agreement. The problem with the OP is simply that these negotiations were never secret as they were often referred to and that they are far from agreement. The fact that the negotiations are confidential (which I am sure you would agree is reasonable) then the problem as to what Australia is signing up too is not even in question yet as the agreement has not even been reach to sign.
I can understand why people want to know the process. Living in the US I am no big fan of pointless disruption, (too much here) but I can see why people get nervous not knowing the primary goal of the agreement, or who or what is pushing it and who will really benefit from it and so on. Once the whole thing is completed can the public veto it?
The problem is these negotiations could go for YEARS or even decades. The fact that many people competing with vested interest to gain the best for their particular enterprise. Should these people have continued involvement at the negotiations stage, nothing would be achieved. As you can see from the previous conversations with CD, with the US FTA, the pork industry was distinctly disadvantaged. Clear demonstration of how the interests of others did nothing to assist in this was good indication that Australians do not wish to examine the FTA for anything other than what affected themselves as they could not see any benefit for their particular area. This clearly shows the narrow mindedness Australians appear to view everything political. "If it does not affect them, who cares" All that aside, what does a FTA give Australia??? Some say it would open markets up to them that were generally closed and they would be correct. BUT Australia has an open market policy, so nothing changes. The US needed no FTA with Australia, and Indonesia, India, China... None need any concession to deal with Australia. Australia needs them to deal with the rest of the world. Australians seem unable to get anything moving without government assistance. Australia is moving away from single desk arrangements (I only use that term as it is understood by many Australians) to individual agreements. This poses a problem for the government as they cannot monitor Australian exports with the same ease they have had. BUT it also disadvantages those that are unable or unwilling to deal with overseas markets for whatever reasons. The problem really is that Australians do not seem to be able to invest in its own nation and consider that the rest of the worlds are looking at Australia as a great entity within the global market. Politically speaking Australia punches well above its weight, but for the global market Australia is an infant in the process of trying to establish itself. As you could imagine, there is great problems when Australia goes too far. Can Australians veto these agreements??? Literally YES. Practically NO. This is because Australians are far too self-motivated and that should something not affecting them directly, does not enter their mind it could in future.
Well yes, but the fact that this entire issue was raised by a HEADLINE, and not the reality of the fact that the negotiations were not secret is something intriguing. They are generally held confidentially so competitors have no idea where the negotiations are heading and have the ability to derail them. The only reason they appear to be secret is because the people who are indignant of them did not know they were occurring. This would appear only because the media did not tell them. As stated they have been constantly referred too and questioned in parliament, and they were announced by the US president Obama in his visit to Australia in his parliamentary speech. As stated do these people know about the negotiations with Japan, Egypt and other Middle Eastern nations??? Did they know about the negotiations of Afghanistan??? If the headline comes out SECRET DEALINGS with Afghanistan they again would be indignant but the fact of the matter is they are not secret just not reported to the media for the appraisal of everybody concerned. No, they are only secret because some media called them secret and that is what people are complaining about. The ALP entered them with unilateral support and I am sure the Coalition has the same support to continue them.
No one in the US paid attention to the international trade agreements we made in 2000. We are paying for it now, but most don't see what happened because it doesn't match up with party politics. Be careful, Australia may need china, but Chinas trade policy is a bugger. The US can sell plenty of goods in China but no one there will buy them, the Yuan is so devalued that US goods never have a chance. Most of our production has moved there too, so the US economy has very little outside income these days. I don't think a closed system makes a good economy, but hey who am I? On the bright side our big industry is doing fine, they have plenty of cheap labor, cheap goods to import and so on. Its just that no ones kids seem to be able to find a decent job anymore. We have a young generation of college graduates living at home. Hope you guys do better.
Well I did not know how the US handled such, but here it was the same, majority cared little, so the only waves were from the few who were directly affected. This is why practically any agreement is generally carried. Oh yes Australia desperately needs China, BUT China does not need Australia. This is why FTA negotiations that have been occurring for a decade are continuing. I believe Abbott made the statement that he could conclude and sign an agreement with China in twelve months because the Howard government considered it was so close to doings so. I believe the facts were that China is difficult to deal with in such situations because of the differences of culture and business dealings that they were no closer than the ALP. So I do agree that such a time frame was reckless but it still maybe achievable. I think China agrees with your sentiment of the closed economy. They seem to be preparing to change their governmental system to something better. This is an interesting transition to watch if it does occur... Australia is suffering the same except that cheap labour and cheap manufacturing costs so industry is leaving Australia in droves. With the importation of Labour and the ever increasing costs to production Australia is fast pricing itself out of markets, Hence the desperate need for FTA's that continue to become ineffectual due to the fact other nations do not want Australian products. Thanks for that, but I believe you should be looking to Australia to see what may become of the US. We are well down the road you are discussing and it is not a good road. Australia needs to act now to change, to head of the problems that are fast approaching like a brick wall.
Honestly sorry to hear that. Though I am no expert on politics in your region, I know enough geography that I should have guessed you were a little closer to the fire than us. I guess its just the ingrained idea that everyone else is ahead of us, or that Australians have more down to earth common sense, but the world is bigger than all of us eh? Thanks for the discussion, I will remember it.
Is there even any evidence that bilateral trade agreements have been good for our economy? Seems like every time we sign a bilateral trade agreement we just reduce the diversity of our economy, and reward a few narrow special interests. I really don't see why a bilateral trade agreement is going to improve Australian exports to China. Certainly didn't with the USA. Surely it's more likely to just open the door for more cheap Chinese imports? I am extremely skeptical of the value of bilateral trade agreements for the economy as a whole, but I guess until Doha gets sorted they're our only option.
I see were your coming from here but you must understand that these agreements are usually about making connections to open markets that are not necessarily closed but difficult to deal with. These agreements are usually about how to deal with disputes and how to negotiate finances and so on rather than opening the market to sales and purchases. It also sets standards of products that Each country is willing to accept rather than waiting until there is a problem. The real benefit for the nation’s business is that it generally opens the door for people to talk. Some benefits are usually gained by dropping of protections that would normally need individual negotiations but generally the trades of goods and services are left to the individual concern and not of the agreement. As you would already be aware China is a major trade partner of Australia without a FTA, but the thought to secure China and make trading easier are of benefit to both nations. No agreement is needed but the agreement is designed to provide some certainty of business for the future. Australia has a generally open market so your concern of cheap Chinese imports are of little consequence as there is nothing in place to stop them. The value of a good FTA for a nation is not what it allows but what it does to solve individual problems associated with dealing on a global scale. Remember, confidence is a major concern in any economy and providing the confidence can be a decent FTA...
Rubbish if Australia is in negations with another nation, there are a lot of other nations who have a vested interest in the outcome. Some may even try to derail the talks so their own country can gain an advantage.
If we had some faith that the government was dealing for our interests, and not solely the interests of powerful elements in business then perhaps this would NOT be newsworthy. The fact is, we have no say. It is not discussed in the media, certainly not during an election campaign and politicians do not speak of it at all. I don't slavishly watch/read the news but i've not heard about 1/100th of the detail now provided by Wikileaks and subsequent publishing by newspapers like the Guardian. We will not get a say on this, in any forum short of widespread dissent or even protest. Briefly, this is how it works in the USA, and it's not much different here: http://www.chomsky.info/books/secrets03.htm And the awesome increases in "trade" that will come about? (same article)
