Part II What's holding Black America back

LOL.

Now tell us again how it is the "small minded" and "stupid" libs who don't respond, while you continue to dodge responding to my post.

The "small minded" and "stupid" libs" are laughing at your dodging and blatant display of hypocrisy.

 

my original comment

I

I was asking you to engage this seriously if I took the time to respond, I had no problem with your original post and I wanted to encourage you to keep going further. It was clear enough and seemed like a decent enough request. I'm glad I didn't waste my time, many of you are very small minded.

 

Global, you taught, how does the above stop children from learning the Harlem Zone?

 

I'm not sure what's going on there. But if it's anything like the projects here, then the problem is lack of motivation to participate in a system that people don't trust. People with charges know that they can't work for more than $12 per hour, and they are quite content in my experience to just keep accepting govt benefits, while supplementing their income through other illegal means. My problem is getting them to trust the system. It's hard to do that, with the results in front of their faces. And the results are more black people in prison. The results are cops treating these people like their crap. And it's not just racism, it's like a class thing. I have grown out my beard, and drive a beater of a car. From 1998-2011, I was pulled over 1 time while I was speeding. From 2011-2013 I have been pulled over 5-6 times, and I have had my testicles felt through illegal searches twice, all resulting in zero charges as I was never breaking the law. I can't get these people to trust in the system while this is going on. While cops are standing on corners with German shepherds. I've been to war zones with less security. Wtf is going on, besides people smoking plants, that warrants the extreme police tactics we see in this country?

I could go on and on. One of the issues is trust. One is listening to racist comments while trying to learn or work. One issue is culture, and how blacks pretty much are just creating one, because whites destroyed any semblance of African culture when they brought them here. I acknowledge the underperformance of blacks just like you, and many apparent racists here. I just have a different and complex take on why they underperform.

 

Well, alright. I read your post as asserting that mine was not serious and was more of what you claimed was "kids running around".

I certainly cannot promise to meet you subjective standards as to "deepness" and "seriousness" But we've exchanged about 10 posts now and after you accused "stupid" "small minded" liberals (hardly the mark of serious discussion) of not responding, you have yet to respond to my post.

Whether you want to or not is up to you. The record is clear so far however as to who is not responding.

 

Maybe someone could take your ideas seriously if you didn't simply regurgitate the thoughts of Rush Limbaugh......know what I mean, big guy?

 

Well for one, in my entire K-12 education, I was taught little about slavery. I remember being a kid, and I remember asking teachers questions about how in the heck could people owning slaves consider themselves good people? The general answer I got was that it was hard for them to see that it was wrong because that's just how the economy worked back then, and everyone was doing it. I have since learned that the general idea of slavery I was taught was wrong. There were many speaking out against slavery. There were slaves writing detailed letters of the harshness of conditions, and the inhumanity of the practice. There were people protesting, and a lot of them. I think we need to teach our kids right, in the fact that slave owners knew what they were doing was wrong, because there is plenty of evidence of protests. Additionally, more children would understand the difficulty in restoring the black culture in this country, if they learned more details of the utter destruction of that culture that occurred.

 

I don't do drugs, I drink, but I hate the war on drugs. State Patrol in Florida was taking people's cash along I-95 in the 90s, with no charges made. Some poor SOB was going to Georgia to buy an excavator at an auction, he had some $20K in cash and they just took it without an arrest.

I'm sure the harlem zone isn't like your projects....http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/13/education/13harlem.html?pagewanted=all

so your first point is interesting- black schools, black teachers, and black counselors bending over backwards, and they don't trust it? why?

Global, I'm positive they don't hear racist comments while in class. Culture was the point of the Harvard group, that hip hop culture is a big negative, but then that same group said this place solved all....

Are you saying 'pure' African culture is the way to go? I am interested in your complex take on things.

I taught all male classes. Males are tunnel vision creatures, we can't multiplex. When a boy is in algebra class, learning means all else is out of mind. I guess you are saying these kids just say to hell with that, and think about other things when in class?

 

They also serve to bolster whatever mindless nonsense some people on the right were already predisposed to believe.

 

Exhibit A, I rest my case.

 

I will post my response to the OP's premise tomorrow.
A few things.

1) Can you be concise in your question, "What is the problem?" I assume your asking why Blacks are underachieving, but I dont' want to assume.

2) This thread is pure drivel. Grimes stop contributing to that regardless of who is right and wrong its just people insulting each other. Everyone involved should be embarrassed.

3) You alluded, or I didn't see the link, a study about higher-socioeconomic African Americans underachieving. Can you confirm that's a premise or better link the evidence.

Thank you in advance.

P.S. I think the posters would serve themselves well to google "ad hominem"
P.P.S. Actually I'll do it for you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

 

the source is my own research

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Not talking income exactly, the US will be 49% white in 2050, that is Brazil today. If minorities don't produce, and those 49% whites are old, then we are in deep crapola. Exception is the 8% Asians we are supposed to have, maybe they can save us.

first things first, the kids have to learn....

For the achievement gap in particular? I don't have no handy answers, I'm still thinking about nature vs. nurture

To help black kids now get work? end the drug war without encouraging drugs, I'd say trade schools but they already exist. I have to look into how well they are doing. Harvard says hip hop is a problem, I have no idea how to stop it.

 

I have, thanks. You are confusing me a little....it is 2014, are you implying that blacks have no control of the family structure today because of slavery?

 

There are 500 "Fortune 500" companies.

 

No doubt you have some compelling theory that explains why this is the result of a so called liberal education. Feel free to explain.

 

1. Explain why the kids in the HCZ failed to achieve. Everyone on the left says it is obvious, it is racism. I claim it is not obvious, so show me the details.

2. I have trying to make it better from page 1

3. Not immediately handy, guess I didn't save that one. The upshot is that normalizing income reduces the gap but does not eliminate it. I'll look tomorrow

 

Thanks for your post. But we just don't think these programs are actually helping. We want the same thing, presumably, but our vision of how to get there differs.

 

The entire premise of your thread is fundamentally erroneous, as I'll explain in a minute.

But first, I'll point some of the errors in your analysis:

o The labor force consists of people over the age of 16, not "working age." Thus many of the people you call working age are actually retirement aged.

o You assumption that all people who are unemployed receive unemployment checks is false. It is only a small percentage of that. Of the approximately 11 million unemployed people, roughly 25% them are receiving unemployment checks. African Americans, and to a lesser extent Hispanics, were less likely to get unemployment benefits than whites. For example, although one of every four whites without a high school diploma received benefits, only one in eight African Americans with the same level of education did.
http://blog.metrotrends.org/2012/08/unemployment-insurance-helped-most/

o Your estimation of SS benefits does not take into account that blacks die on an average 10 years earlier than whites.

o You do not include FICA taxes black workers pay.

But more fundamentally, you simply assume that all money that goes to or on behalf of black folks from the Govt, whether it be for salaries they earn or benefits they receive, is simply a complete waste and drag for the economy. That simply is not accurate. Money spent on salaries or benefits almost all goes right back into the economy to purchase goods or services, where it creates demand for more production and income to someone else. You completely ignore the spending in the economy that creates and the demand and production that produces.

You also completely failed to address my basic point, which if I was too subtle, is that the very premise of your thread, "what's holding America back," is wrong.

What is holding the American economy back is not blacks. We've had blacks for 200 years. We always had blacks, and had them in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s.

What is holding the economy back is lack of spending in the economy.

50% of the money going to the 1% does not get spent, but goes into their offshore accounts or wherever they decide to stick it. It is not getting spent into the economy creating jobs. That accounts to proportionately, about $600 billion each year that is not being spent in the economy compared to 30 years ago. That is roughly 3x what was spent in the Stimulus, each year. If that $600 billion was being spent in the economy each year instead of being stashed in offshore accounts, there would be far greater demand for products and services, more production, more hiring and jobs, and less people relying on government assistance you are complaining about.

That is what is holding the economy back, magnified by the Republican driven austerity we've had for the past 4 years that has further suppressed spending in the economy.

I appreciate you may want to blame black folk. But your entire premise is fundamentally erroneous. You should be blaming the trickle down policies that have diverted so much more of the nation's wealth and income to people who don't spend it. And you should be blaming the austerity the Republicans are forcing us under.

So what is the point of your whole thread if you don't have a solution? To erroneously blame blacks for the poor economy?

 

Just FYI, 15% of rural America lives in poverty, compared to 35% of blacks, and a significant portion of the rural poverty rate is attributable to Hispanics. So, your statement that rural conservatives are the biggest beneficiaries of state wealth redistribution is just plain wrong. Keep in mind the context of this thread, we are talking about what blacks should be doing/who blacks should be blaming for their problems.

Now admittedly, there are probably more rural people than there are black people, but the population numbers aren't relevant when discussing who is to blame for black's problems because it's clear that blacks are more likely to receive help from the supposedly evil and white-centric government than white conservatives do.

Finally, government aid has a lot more trouble functioning in and even reaching rural areas than it does city areas, so blacks are not just more likely to receive help statistically, they are also more likely to receive that help competently.

 

.....

 

Most likely, the kids' failure that you mention wasn't a direct result of racism. They probably failed because they didn't buy what the program directors and teachers were selling. Those same kids still go home to families, friends, and communities who think the system is rigged. Those people influence more than the teachers. I'm telling you, there is a trust problem. And one can't blame them; the history and stats are there that show blacks getting screwed. The racism shown toward blacks, imo, has indirect effects on their performance.

 

my numbers were only slightly off since the data was a little dated.

o

point taken, has been adjusted

but black children get survivor benefits at much higher rates as a result which offsets that, I did however revise based on new numbers I dug up.

done, didn't make much difference as I expected

. This is another thread, but you ignore over a century of evidence that the economic multiplier of government is not greater than 1.0 once you get beyond essential services. If you were right, economics would be simple, just print some cash and hire 40 million new soldiers, make 20,000 new F-22s and we are out of recession. The real world just doesn't work that way, and it's been tried.

That's not the title, nor the topic. Is it too much to ask that you actually read some of this thread before commenting? I thought you were taking this seriously?

How many threads have a solution? Why is incumbent on me and not you? The purpose was to examine a few questions, the biggest being exact how does this racism thing work in K-12

added: here is the updated analysis, conclusion is unchanged. I think I am way to conservative on the cost of crime and education, but whatever, the point remains

 

Parents are on a waiting list to get into the Promise Academy, many are pissed they can't get in, you are telling me they are not buying? why would they do such a thing as waste their time trying to get in when they don't believe in it?

The HCZ is the community. http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/03/assessing-the-harlem-childrens-zone

and their friends are in the schools themselves, so where are all these negative people coming from?

By system, I assume you mean government and local businesses, I can't imagine what else it might be. New York city is liberal and diversity central. New York city voted for Obama with 81% of the vote http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...rt-in-new-york-city-is-best-in-114-years.html The liberals own everything, so how could that 'system' have failed these people? you are telling me that despite being in a huge metropolis surrounded overwhelmingly by liberals, despite the absolute best school they can get and black people all around them trying very hard, these kids walk into class and think 'screw this, the system is rigged'???

 

Education Liberals attack all opposing viewpoints, and blacks hate having bad news public, or public discussion about what they might be doing wrong. This lack of honest debate, as also seen in this thread, really stops any progress and here is an example.

http://www.eastbayexpress.com/oakland/rich-black-flunking/Content?oid=1070459

unless it is standard dogma, of course they don't want to hear it.

information control, bad idea if you actually want to progress...

Unexpected by who? That's not an 'acceptable' explanation, so predictably

Ogbu lived among his subjects for 9 months, he spent full time doing interviews, and observing. Asa Hilliard spend no time there and makes the irrelevant comment that there are thousands of black who do achieve. Well no kidding, nobody denies that, Ogbu was in Shaker specifically because there were a whole lot of blacks who didn't achieve. She thinks the teachers didn't expect enough, even though she wasn't there to observe the teachers like Ogbu. Out of hand dismissal, is that intellectual honesty? She could be right, but doesn't one have to do some data gathering before reaching conclusions?

Why is it outrageous to spend 9 months with black kids and find out that

It was outrageous to conclude the black kids just didn't put in the effort. Seriously people, and I know a lot of you actually agree that is an outrageous conclusion, but just how are people like me supposed to compromise with people like you when you won't even entertain reasonable observations on the other side of the coin?

 

Ok, after much reading.

I think Grimes's only real question in the thread is how does racism work in K-12.

I thought it was a more complex question.
First let me say that I taught school for 1 semester in one of the poorest schools in the nation. (Not Harlem)
{I couldn't hack the job because it was profoundly depressing}

The under performance of the community you are referring to is almost entirely based on socioeconomic status. They under perform in school for many reasons all directly related to poverty.
Uneducated parents who don't value education.
Lack of resources (food, shelter) that make it difficult to learn.
Its hard to learn to read when your hungry.
Its impossible to learn when your family inflicts drama on you. How is a 10 year old going to concentrate during a math lesson when there was a domestic abuse incident?
Poverty results in increased crime, which impacts children.
Poverty creates gangs and gangs have a profound impact on a school. Its hard to learn math when you are being threatened with physical violence.

Which leads to something you said in your OP "I can teach algebra to anyone".
That was entirely incorrect. You can't teach anything to a small child who is the victim of abuse or exposed to the horrors of an impoverished community. You can't teach math to a student who is literally faced with the choice of 'do well in school' or 'be the victim of a physical assault'.
(At the school I taught at, the choice was simple --- if you try at school you get labeled a "school boy" and being a school boy means you will be jumped" and since children are succeptible to peer pressure and they want to fit in, that school culture almost makes it impossible for a male student to learn)

I could write write about the impact of poverty on education all day, but I think I will just jump into your thesis, even though its hidden.

Culture in the black community is a problem. The culture of "no snitching" and "Get what you can why you can" are no conducive to getting out of poverty (Which you correctly stated is best achieved through education. But its not really a black culture as much as it is a culture of poverty. Its no different than the culture of poor white communities in Appalachia. (Don't rat, abuse the system).

I think you see it as a black thing and fail to see it as a poverty thing. Look at any poor, previously oppressed group of whites in Europe. Gypsies... don't rat, take what you can.

As to the 'racism' question. Here is the answer.
African Americans have had economic opportunity for far less time than white people.
So if you look at African Americans today and go back 3 generations you are going to find almost no college educated people and lots of poverty.

So focusing on Harlem, your looking at basically just the 3rd generation of people who have actual economic opportunity. The problem is that their grandparents were poor (or they wouldn't live in Harlem), then their parents were poor, and now they are poor. And being poor greatly increases the odds of negative externalities. (Crime, divorce, abuse, drug use, gangs)

So when people refer to racism as a problem. They are really talking about 3 things, 2 of which are on the decline.
1) Job Opportunity. The fact is its harder for African Americans to get a job than white people. Its a problem that is going away. (Unless you believe the latest research on racism which suggests people are not out to harm those of other races, just that they are more likely to help [ read hire] people of the same race) And not getting a job keeps you trapped in poverty. The reason this matters in K-12 is that those kids ability to learn is impacted by the economic status of their parents. Mom can't find a job means the K-12 child is going to suffer the externalities.

2) Drug use. African Americans are more likely to be arrested for drug use than white people. As anecdotal evidence I can say that in college every person I knew used drugs. Of all the times me and my friends got caught, we never got in trouble. (Including by police). I assume this has something to do with looking affluent and police deciding it wasn't worth their time (dumb kids having a party). For whatever reason, African Americans in high crime areas are not giving the same leniency.

3) The generational ability to climb out of poverty. Simply, black people have not had as much time to get out of poverty. But clearly the number is going down. The Recession of 2007 has probably skewed the numbers in the short term, but I am confident you will continue to see the number of African Americans below the poverty rate to continue declining for many decades until its similar to the poverty level of whites. (80 years?)

So basically, it IS more difficult for black children to succeed in school, statistically, because of the lack of opportunities their grandparents had.

4) My advice to a black family in a poor black area with underperforming schools. Move. A poverty stricken environment is not conducive to getting out of poverty.