Part II What's holding Black America back

Is this even worth responding to? Ever try clicking on the link?

EPI, a marketing research company headquartered in Germany, set up the study to ensure that the only difference between the job applicants was skin color. They actually tutered the job applicants in interviewing to ensure that there was virtually no differences in any of the objective criteria that could be used to evaluate their qualifications....

... and your allegation is that they sent them a bunch of crack addicts or "ghetto trash" blacks? Seriously?

The whole point of the study was to determine if racial prejudice alone affected hiring decisions. No reputable research company would make such a fundamental mistake.

Of course the statement "i know a lot of black people and very few of them speak, act, and dress like someone companies are looking to hire" is reflective of the person making the statement as opposed to being representative of blacks in America. There is an old saying that "you can judge a person by the company they keep." This type of statement that expresses explicit racial prejudice is far more reflective of the person that makes it than it is of African-Americans.

 

So let's see, we take a group of kids living in a community that has traditionally been subjected to some of the worst discrimination in America historically and then we put the kids in a segregated school and pretend that they live in a bubble and are completely unaware of the overall racial discrimination that exists in America. We pretend that they are not aware of the racial inequities in such things and law enforcement and criminal justice where blacks are far more likely to be arrested for drug crimes and sentenced to longer prison terms than white. Where they're not supposed to be aware of the fact that no matter how well they do in school they're still going to be discriminated against in employment. They're supposed to unaware of the fact that when they get a job they will, on the average, only receive 60% of the compensation of a white person in the same job.

All of this while they live in a community that has traditionally been subjected to racial discrimination for over 100 years. They're supposed to be completely ignorant of history just because we isolate them in an all black school.

Motivation is the primary reason behind scholastic achievement and when we destroy motivation by racial discrimination in employment and economic opportunity it reaches all the way down to the high school level of education. When IQ tests were evalunated it was found that the greatest difference in scores between people was caused by motivation and not intelligence.

Racial discrimination destroys motivation and this affects those most affected by the discrimination disproportionately. Black kids growing up in Harlem are far more aware of racial discrimination in America that a black kid growing up in Seattle. The "Harlem Children’s Zone" is comprised of kids that have already had their motivation to succeed destroyed because of racial discrimination in America and the "racist" believes that a program that addresses a symptom of the problem (i.e. lost motivation) is supposed to correct the actual problem (racial discrimination) but addressing the symptom does not correct the problem.

If we want African-Americans to accomplish more then we need to reduce the problem that is preventing them from achieving more and that is racial discrimination in America. So long as racial discrimination remains extensive in America, and it is extensive in America, we are destroying the motivation for African-Americans.

The extensive racial discrimination in America destroys the motivation of the student to achieve and that, in turn, impedes their progress in Algebra.

 

To summarize your case: So called liberals are to blame for social and economic inequities in this country.....because racism has nothing to do with it.

 

i never called them crack addicts or trash, that's all you
the article doesn't mention how they dressed or acted during the interview so your point is moot.

 

Liberals turned the concept of racism into an ideologically-based partisan political business in which they can race bait to 'win' arguments or sometimes political contests and then make themselves (the leadership) wealthier than they already have become by siphoning off vast amounts of the taxpayer money they handle in the name of dealing with and wiping out racism in this nation. It started in the 1960s and became a full time and very lucrative business for the Left to the point in which they manufacture issues and problems (the Martin v. ZImmerman issue) where there isn't one. Sweet!

 

Right, of course, racism has nothing to with anything, never did, never could have. Does that just about sum up your position?

 

You can't even respect a fellow liberal's request to stop?

 

I have no idea what that means.

 

do you have any evidence whatsoever that say 8th graders are thinking that?

Not just any all black school, a complete community makeover that Obama said this about

and Harvard called it 'the cure'. So what you are saying is that this should be expected to fail, for what you claim are obvious reasons even though Canada, Obama, and the Harvard group all didn't see it your way. In the article I presented above, a black professor at Georgia State says low expectations by whites are a problem, so maybe you ought to rethink that according to her.

data please

Seattle is better?

These people I'm talking about live and work in New York and Ixtellors job survey was done in Chicago. New York, Chicago, and Seattle are very strongly democrat. Perhaps we need to get rid of democrats?

 

My post about the quality of PF posts was basically deleted, so here is a prime example of what is wrong with PF.

1) Generalized a huge group of people to form an opinion devoid of factual evidence.
2) Fails to recognize that many political participants use race. Many conservatives have run elections based on racial stereotypes. (Willie Horton). How many stories has FOX run on the "knockout game"?
Thus assuming his premise is correct in at least some instances, not as a universal stereotype, he fails to grasp how its done by both parties.
3) How many black perp crimes does Drudge report every week? Report scary black men, get white viewers to click the links, profit.

1) I live in Texas a 100% Republican state (for statewide office). Texas is a "pay to play" state. The rules on lobbying and gifts are laughable and the vast majority of politicians use their government jobs to enrich themselves and their friends. Rick Perry has worked for the government his entire life and he is a millionaire.

You can't not find any Republican controlled state where the political class doesn't use the ability to spend tax dollars to enrich themselves.
Virginia Governor....
Alabama -- Blue Cross Blue shield has a virtual monopoly (88% of all insurance). They used government regulations to wipe out competition and the Alabama political class enriched themselves in the process.

The fact you limit the corruption and self interest to liberals is laughable.
2) The fact you are either intellectually dishonest or willfully ignorant of this is embarrassing and collectively serves to dumb down the entire website.

1) The Zimmerman case was fascinating and legally important for many reasons, none of which have anything to do with race.
2) The fact you don't recognize how the Zimmerman case was unique again speaks to ignorance or intellectual dishonesty. Either way it eroded any thoughtful dialogue to push a thoughtless, uneducated, opinion.


How in any way, shape or form did you contribute something thoughtful, insightful, or productive to the debate?

 

Because it simply isn't the reality I have lived for decades as a white person. I've heard thousands and thousands of racist comments and jokes throughout my life. In bars, at work, at school, everywhere. Because I am white, people think I am on their same team or something, and mention trash about differences in races, etc. And they also think they are so clever, that they can be racist behind blacks' backs, but they aren't. People have instincts. Trust is required to cooperate, work, live, function together. I know current racists are a part of the problem, as well as historical racists. And the problem isn't restricted to America. People that demonize other races are all over the world, and all throughout history have stirred up hatred and pointed out the "other" as the problem. Why should America be immune to this ancient human problem? My ears throughout my life tells me there is a problem, all the words that one comes up with to tell a story that racism isn't a problem in this country won't convince me America has solved this human problem.

 

thanks for your time

.... at the Promise Academy

Remember the zone isn't just a school, it is an entire neighborhood. The kids are fed, they are escorted home if needed, and there are people patrolling the area. The school stresses all areas of life, not just schoolwork, and there is no lack of resources. They have counselors that will work with the whole family. The idea was no excuses

That's why I am finding it hard to accept all the standard explanations.

You are right, they would not have the motivation. But I think you are wrong to say it a poverty issue. Poor Asians do not do that.

Has anybody in Europe been more oppressed and hated than the Jews? I would be astonished if so.

I am trying to eliminate variables, as the Harlem experiment does. If I were to take your suggestion and look at middle class blacks who moved to suburban schools we get the Shaker Heights scenario in my post above. Too messy, so isolating cause and effect seemed only logical in the one place that black people themselves say is their best example of trying to solve the gap problem. With the complete community makeover in the HCZ, I am going to go out on a limb and suggest drugs are not a problem at the promise academy, agree? If not we will have to examine.

The Jobs issue- again I struggle to see how these kids are thinking that in this environment, which is also in the middle of New York whish is strongly liberal. Can you supply any evidence the children have this on their mind?

Your issue 3, it seems like just a general statement about poverty and not how it relates to learning, can you clarify?

 

So your mind is completely closed to accepting any of Ogbu's conclusions that black kids simply didn't work hard enough? Why did the parents succeed as adults but the children gave up when the parents made an effort to move them to a better school? The parents certainly experienced what you described.

 

Well I don't like to generalize that all blacks underperform, because obviously they don't. If they aren't working hard enough, it almost certainly has to do with what happened to them in this country, in history, and with current racism. The black culture is rather unique that I can think of. There isn't any examples I can think of that compare to what happened to them. Whites took their culture and history, something that all humans around the world have. When emancipation occurred, they had zero historical or cultural figures/icons/heroes. No entertainment or literary history. Nothing. Then Southerners and others treated them like crap for decades after emancipation, continuing even to today. And I'm supposed to think it's a big mystery if someone brings me a study that says, "Looky here, these blacks are not doing well." Really genius?

 

so its everyone else's responsibility to pick blacks up now and get their (*)(*)(*)(*) in gear for them?

 

ok.

Ogbu spent 9 months observing and talking to the kids and their parents, the parents were the ones who invited Ogbu there. Ogbu observed disengaged parents and kids not trying, and you are assigning the 'reason' for that. So making this a reality, what you are saying is that the parents (who themselves had broken out of poverty and were educated) and more the kids, said to themselves "to hell with learning, we have been treated like crap" and gave up. I find that incredibly odd considering that the parents made the effort to move to that suburb for their schools.

 

Well, let's go back to emancipation. Was it everyone else's responsibility to pick blacks up and help them get their (*)(*)(*)(*) in gear for them? I mean, the whites did leave them largely without property, a culture, literary works, heroes, history, family...almost nothing. So what was the responsibility in 1865, and you tell me the year it changed.

 

yes, back then it was everyone's responsibility. now that they're free its their own.

 

So they went from Harlem to an all black school in which suburb? I'm sorry, I don't have time to read the countless, "Look at these blacks' performance" studies.

 

today they have a culture, literary works, heroes, and history. how much longer in your view do they get to pretend they don't?

 

I believe you mentioned something like $21K per pupil. And again thats only the pupils that made it into the program. All that money goes to the pupil, not the parents and not the neighborhood economic output.
Their parents are still poor, lack education, and everything that goes with an economically secure upbringing.
I can teach anything to my own children because I have a lot of education. "Dad why is the sky blue? What is a derivative?, etc" The kids in the Promise school don't have the daily minute by minute by opportunity.
The fact the pupils needs are met doesn't mean they don't suffer from domestic abuse or witness traumatizing events. I have never have a family member or acquaintance murdered.

The neighborhood is still the same. There are still high levels of crime.

I think you would agree that students with poor uneducated parents are at a disadvantage to students with high incomes and college degrees. Its not at all shocking to see poor kids doing poorly.

1) There aren't that many poor Asian kids in the US. They are the only group with a higher per capita income that white people. (And higher per capita education level)
2) Culture explains the rest. See Tiger Moms. Asians greatly value education and respect to elders. I addressed Culture as a problem in Harlem.
3) There are poor Asian areas in the US where the academic achievement is similar to the poor black areas.
Korean gangs in L.A.

1) You made a logical fallacy. Rather than explain why Gypsies (poor uneducated whites have the same outcomes as poor uneducated blacks) you changed the subject to another group.
2) I am not familiar enough with the educational rates of poor Jews in Europe. I am pseudo-familiar with the sociological factors that led many Jews to be successful, but again you failed to tie poverty to the Jewish community and just mentioned oppressed. As I initially said Poverty is explanation #1.

I am familiar with the Shaker Heights study.
1) Its a small test group.
2) We know nothing about the education level of the parents. Were they Plumbers and Electricians who made good incomes without education? Were they entrepreneurs who made their money without higher education?
3) If I had to wager, I imagine that the black parents were under educated compared to their white peers in the same community.
4) For those black parents in Shaker Heights, how many generations of 'education is important' did they have in their family history? My wife teaches at an affluent black high school in a major city. And the vast majority of her students are first generation middle class whose parents made money without college. (Business owners, or high paying vocational fields).
Which basically means its a cultural issue tied to education and wealth. Again... not race.

I don't believe race has ANYTHING to do with this topic.

Its poverty its self and the types of cultures that poverty creates which is cyclical.
(I gave several examples of poor whites with identical outcomes)

Believing in education is a learned behavior that is more likely to occur the longer it is instilled in your 'family culture'.
My family has been college educated for 6 generations. Hence doing well in school and going to college is a given that member of my family would question, much less ignore.
For African Americans the number of generations that have promoted education is vastly limited.
Colleges began desegregating in the 60's which means the number of generations that had the opportunity to believe in education was more limited than whites.

If you were a black parent would you push your children to get an education in 1940's Texas?
Obviously not, since it was not an option. So they taught their children other values.
Fast forward 70 years and those values linger. The hope is that education will supercede other values over time, but that takes time.... AND they have to witness the benefits firsthand.

Every human knows things we should do, but until we see tangible benefits we probably wont.
(See Investing --- unless you have been investing 10% of your income annually you're failing to engage in an obvious benefit)


A last point. You continue to make a logical fallacy regarding liberals in government and poor black people.

1) You ignore the fact NYC has had a Republican Mayor for 20 consecutive years.
2) You ignore every Red State with horrifically impoverished and uneducated minorities. See Texas Hispanics.
3) You make a VERY basic logically fallacy.
Premise: NYC has poor black people. (True)
Premise: NYC has a democratic Government. (True, basically)
Therefore: Liberals cause black people to be poor. (False)

Here , I will instantly disprove it.
Premise: Texas has poor Hispanic people. (True)
Premise: Texas has a Republican Government (True)
Therefore: Conservatives cause Hispanics to be poor. (False)

Its called a Non-Sequitur.

 

So at the snap of a finger, in 1865, blacks were supposed to be performing on par with whites in all aspects of culture? They didn't even have schools. They didn't even have a Santa Claus. What was the year that blacks gained a culture, history, and heroes on par with whites? You know, those 2 things that all humans around the planet use to develop their own cultures? The slave trade took those things from blacks here. It's kind of a big deal. I'm not saying one has to help blacks do anything. But one sure has no justification in resisting them either, but our history points out that is not the case.

 

if they are not on par with whites then this means one of two things:
1 whites need to slow down their progression on account of something that happened before any of them were born
or
2 blacks need to get their own shlt in gear and no one can do that for them but themselves
btw 150 years isn't the snap of a finger

 

Obviously you aren't aware of the atrocities committed against blacks since then. I didn't say there had to be an equivalence. I was only pointing out a difference, and there is one. Whites kept their history, culture, and family ties, and used it to raise their descendants. Like I said, I don't expect whites to do anything but acknowledge the difficulties blacks have to overcome, because of the slave trade. It is an important historical lesson. It should show us the potential for unchecked profit, and how slavery and oppression doesn't help anyone out, and instead causes long term problems for your kids, grandkids, etc. And once the racists (even the mild ones) become a smaller and smaller minority, and people do recognize this lesson, it will be all that is needed for blacks, and all races, to flourish together. Racism is a scam. It's a way smart people try to acquire power. It's been that way for thousands of years.

 

All things best forgotten......because historical context apparently has nothing to do with anything.