Britain's Tea Party sees gains

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by Trinnity, Jan 5, 2014.

  1. Sixteen String Jack

    Sixteen String Jack New Member

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    Leaving the EU would be the best thing to happen to Britain.

    The House of Lords mainly represents the government.

    The Church of England is the established church of England. Therefore the Church of England is represented in the House of Lords by the Lords Spiritual.

    The Church of Scotland is Presbyterian. It does not have bishops or a hierarchy of ministers like other Christian churches have, so has nobody to represent it in the Lords.

    The Anglican churches in Wales and Northern Ireland are no longer established churches and are therefore not represented either.

    Britain needs to keep the House of Lords to provide checks on the activities of the government in the House of Commons.
     
  2. FearandLoathing

    FearandLoathing Well-Known Member

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    The immigration issue is happening throughout Europe. Vancouver gets a lot of continental European tourists [the Brits stay] and they all say the same, that is is growing, becoming more militant and racist, or seen to be. There is a former UK cop who moved here to join the Vancouver Police Department for that reason. Whites are a technical minority here and it works.

    All Labour [don't you hate the spell checker?] Parties screw up. It is only a matter of time. We have never had a socialist government in Canada, but every now and then the electorate goes insane from too muck hockey and baby seal clubbing and puts one into Provincial office. Within three to six years, the province is close enough to bankruptcy and they get thrown out, one of the advantages of the Parliamentary system, we don't have to wait four years to get rid of liars and cheats.

    In Britain, though, it seems to be a recurring nightmare. You keep re-installing them, which after Tony Blair's reinvention of a tired old rhetoric AND an unnecessary love-fest inspired war.
     
  3. tamora

    tamora New Member

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    UKIP is very much in favour of democracy. The House of Lords has been one of the checks and balances in the British democratic system, but even that hasn't saved our democracy. Ultimately it always depended on the worth of the people installed.

    However it is the House of Commons and the mainstream media which are the bigger threats to democracy and the Commons can overrule the HofL anyway.
     
  4. Diuretic

    Diuretic Well-Known Member

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    I don't disagree with the need for a house of review. The state of Queensland in Australia has had a unicameral parliament for many years and time and time again has shown that a government with a large majority in a unicameral parliament will act excessively. The issue is how do you get the reps in the house of review? They're not elected in the UK. They're elected in the US and in Australia. I accept that a federation is different from a national system but I don't think it would be difficult to formulate a method of election to the house of review in the UK parliament. The will isn't there, that's all. But until that's achieved Britain will still be dragging its heels, as it historically has done, in implementing democracy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I think we have a fundamental disagreement over what a democracy really is.
     
  5. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    Yes. Even my German friends say similar things about their country and apparently there are some "no go" areas in Berlin which are inhabited mainly by Turks.
    Almost everyday here in the UK I hear of grumbling about the migrant situation and it makes me wonder how will it before racially motivated violence starts to grow.


    Haha that's quite nuts really but seems all too familiar.

    I think that the labour party has had it's time. I mean we do have a welfare and healthcare system that works....kind of.
    And I think that's kind of the limit when it comes to socialist policies. I mean what more can be done after that?

    The horrible thing is that Ed Milliband who's the new labour leader is talking about expanding socialist polices and it seems a bit paradoxical to me because govt spending is maxed out.
    I think in the future it will end up being a toss up between UKIP or Labour mainly because the conservatives are unpopular and having to cut spending.

    I must admit that Blair is among if not the worst PM we've ever had and it's not just the rush to war that's done damage but the reckless spending and the nigh endless legislation which only made life harder.

    I personally believe that he's a traitor to the UK and should be given life imprisonment.
     
  6. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    Well we are promised a referendum on the issue and I think that a great many people will vote yes.
    But to be honest I don't think we can continue with the EU any more as it's doing more harm than good.
    You know Switzerland has something known as direct democracy which allows through a public signed petition to repeal any law that has been introduced.

    Is that not closer to true democracy when the people have sway over the legislature?

    I don't think that true democracies are always appropriate for every country because the culture is different.
     
  7. tamora

    tamora New Member

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    We definitely do if you think UKIP is not in favour of democracy.
     
  8. Diuretic

    Diuretic Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure they're in favour of the status quo. I'm sure they want to take Britain back to the 1950s. I'm not sure they're in favour of democracy as I know it.
     
  9. tamora

    tamora New Member

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    I don't know how you favour democracy, but I suggest you read UKIP's last manifesto* before commenting further. Please bear in mind, all parties including UKIP have their policies under review for the next election in 2015.

    I read recently that Australia has used its navy to turn back refugee ships. Perhaps you should live with an open door immigration policy, either that or come up with a credible reason for your opposition and learn about how the EU affects our democracy, then perhaps I'll have some respect for your view.

    *Particularly the section entitled "The Constitution and How we are Governed".
     
  10. Diuretic

    Diuretic Well-Known Member

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    My views aren't beholden to anything to do with the current Australian government or its policies, make no mistake about that. This isn't a discussion on our current policies towards asylum-seekers so I won't go on about it too much, suffice to say that I am in complete opposition to the current govt policies. As for immigration broadly, I support the right of any country to develop its own immigration policies (with the proviso that they adhere to international treaties - something which is looking distinctly dodgy for the Australian govt by the way). I can also understand the Brits' broader attitudes towards immigration. Even before joining the then ECM it was problematic for Britain, I well remember the problems in the later 1950s with immigration from the Caribbean and Indian sub-continent (said problems were very complex and I don't want to simplify them) as a resident of inner South London.

    I will read that manifesto with interest, thank you for the link. I will do my best to respond constructively.
     
  11. tamora

    tamora New Member

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    Nevertheless, presumably you are living under an independent Australian government's policies, whether you agree with them or not? I'm living under policies shaped on the EU stage. Our perspectives are therefore very different.

    And thank you. Your earlier comments were rather ... trite. I've heard all the pro-EU arguments, their variants, and UKIP's opponents' opinions on the party. This is a well worn debate on many UK message boards and newspaper comment sections. I think the EU suits corporate interests, special interest lobby groups and those benefiting directly from implementing legislation resulting from EU policies. I can't the point in anyone else supporting it.
     
  12. spt5

    spt5 New Member

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    Then maybe you can add the national minorities of any EU member state to your list. Some as large as 10 % of their host nation. For them, the EU is the only defence against the unchecked power of their host nations' oppressive institutions. But most likely you are wrong, because both the European Council and the Council of the European Union are manned by the national governments, and so is the European Comission. The only place for the agendas you quoted to come up would be the European Parlament, but even that is arranged by pre-defined lines, not special interest.
     
  13. tamora

    tamora New Member

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    My list is about the British, not other Europeans. We cannot stay in the EU because it suits other nations. If some member states need the EU to defend them against unchecked power, God help them. The EU isn't anything like as bad as they have experienced in the past, but it doesn't have the checks and balances any self-respecting democracy should have, and it's not a democracy anyway, so none of us knows what it will be like in the future.

    I'm not wrong.

    The Council of Europe is not an EU institution, though it has very close links with it. It sets the agenda on human rights in Europe. Its court's decisions are superior to anything decided by national governments. Judges are nominated by each national government, then from those nominees a candidate is chosen by the Parliamentary Assembly (made up of members appointed by national governments from all 47 member states) of the Council of Europe. As far as I'm aware national governments cannot recall their judge or parliamentary member.

    The Council of the EU is 'manned' by a national government ministers, who can be very easily outvoted under qualified majority voting rules. National parliaments have no means to veto or change what it decides. (The British parliament appears to have very little will to change anything anyway, unless an issue makes it out into the public consciousness and they then come under public pressure. When that happens our MPs rattle their little sabres and make a lot of noise ... and that's it. They know they are powerless.)

    The European Commission is not manned by national governments. Member states nominate a Commissioner who is then required to act in "community" interests, not the interests of home state. Commissioners take an oath to this effect.

    Then there's the European Courts of Justice, which uphold EU treaties, the decisions of which are legally binding upon member states.

    I said special interest groups (fronted by lobbyists), have a reason to stay in the EU. I didn't say they set the agendas. Though corporate lobbyists don't spend millions of euros without getting something in return, obviously. Then there are the lobbyists funded with millions of euros from European taxpayers, via the EU, which then lobby the EU. They're helpfully pushing the EU agenda. With all that cash sloshing around, I'd say they have a pretty compelling reason to support EU membership.

    Funny how you can go from wanting to know 'how the EU works' one day, then knowing I'm wrong a mere day later. :wink:
     
  14. spt5

    spt5 New Member

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    I am doing my homework about learning the EU. I don't think that you are wrong in your understanding how the EU works. I only disagree with your goals about it, because I see the average British as pawns on a sinking ship, and for the individual British, the EU is the life boat.

    Without the EU, British workers will eventually be trapped, like some 3rd world Pakistanies trying to get visas to a country where job markets exist.

    If the British were smart, they would pay the lobbyists of their own, to lobby according to the processes you are describing, and get English accepted as a secondary administrative language and corporate business language in EVERY member state, down to the lowest level of local/state governance and business practices.

    There are many forces within the EU that profit from creating conflicts between the member states. The British have a unique moral high ground to stop that and replace that entire culture with Anglosphere style cultural experiences, which, why shall we lie, are far superior to anything that continental Europe has ever produced.

    The British are wrong because they decided to be (very) weak and stop exporting their administrative experience, that clearly has built the modern world, in which Europe is a back-slipping baggage.
     
  15. tamora

    tamora New Member

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    We differ hugely. I see the EU as the sinking ship and British independence as the lifeboat.

    How will British workers be eventually trapped? And job markets don't exist much in most of Europe, so the UK is one of the countries Europeans come to in search of jobs in large numbers. The British economy is showing signs (albeit very small) of recovery despite EU membership.

    Who are "the British"? Politicians climbing the greasy pole? Multinationals who happen to wave a British flag when it suits them? Bureaucrats getting fat on expenses? These people are 'internationalists'. Even the Queen benefits from the CAP! Clearly they don't have the same interests as British workers being made to compete with cheap foreign labour, British householders who live in houses built on flood plains, such is the scarcity of suitable building land under pressure from mass immigration, British taxpayers who see the cost of services go ever upwards and see the quality of those services ever reducing, whilst they also pay the cost of EU membership as well as supporting people on welfare benefits when they're edged out of the jobs market, small and medium sized British businesses struggling against the cost of EU inspired red tape and British students who must pay thousands of pounds in tuition fees because to do otherwise would mean the UK funding the tuition fees of all other EU students studying here too.

    British politicians used to tell us we should be 'at the heart' of the EU to reform it but they never made any discernible progress, though the Single Market was designed by British civil servants and even that doesn't work for us. The British certainly do pay lobbyists, but these lobbyists are not required to act in the interests of the British people. There are too many vested interests who like things just the way they are too much to see radical changes made.

    British politicians are wrong. They have never had an informed democratic mandate to place us into a pointless anti-democratic, expensive corrupt bureaucracy run to benefit its own and corporations. And replace the entire culture with Anglosphere style cultural experiences??? That's a pipedream! You need to do a lot more homework; it just isn't what continental Europe wants and there are too many vested interests.You're not the only one with the pipedream though. There's an election coming up and our hapless MPs are frantically rattling their little sabres again.

    A lot of Continental Europeans seem to be proud of the EU and take any criticism of it personally. I can accept that they think it's a good thing, but I think the British people see it very differently and a majority of those of us who take an interest want out.
     
  16. spt5

    spt5 New Member

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    The purchasing power of the England part of Britain is negligibly small compared to the EU, so the British job market exists because of the EU, right?

    I think it is the most successful con in history, to equate the working people of a land with the terms of their nation. This con was invented by the frech revolution and is executed through the ideology of democracy. But how can we accept this trick, when history is constant in that when any working family, peasant or industrial, needs to protect its interest, it must hire gunmen, and pay them? Any state anywhere in history plays the role of the gunman, and a nation state is one of the purest forms of this. So, Britan is not and has never been a representation of British workers, plus, like every state, Britain relies on conflict between people to maintain its domestic power.

    I think that history proves that if you want to protect your turf against an overpowering neighbor, your better solution is to get some voting power in the internal processes of your opponent. Isolating yourself has always been an invitation to get overrun.

    Democracy is a problem. Why are so many people into it? Even I know that democracy is simply a provision of unchecked power for some national majority. The purpose of democracy is to make money for selected individuals by robbing everyone who is not in the majority, and fooling the majority that this can be continued forever, in form of divisive conflict.

    Those continental Europeans are proud of the EU who exploit it to their benefit. The EU itself is meant to be based on conflict, which is why it was created with the same nation states that have been continuously against each other's throats ever since ww1. If Britain was not weak and meek and timid, then the British would be able to exploit this conflict within the EU, using the still existing British vote. If Britain leaves the EU, then Britain is totally powerless and dead on the long run.
     
  17. tamora

    tamora New Member

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    That as an independent nation we'd be a lot smaller than the EU is not in dispute, but the rest of your comment is an extraordinary leap in logic. Could you explain the logic behind it, please? Why the heck do you think the British jobs market exists because of the EU?

    It's not ideal, but without a doubt it's far better than the alternative, whereby the people of the UK exist to further the aims of the bureaucracy that is the EU and its vested interests and corporations. You didn't actually tackle a single one of the concerns I listed, btw. I can't see the point in accepting all that. There's no advantage to it. And I'd have said the EU is the biggest con in history.

    British politicians have never been representative of the British people (and contrary to popular belief they've never been required to) but they have taken that lack representation to new extremes with their support for the EU. The EU is even less representative of us. Given a choice between the two, I'll take the group we can eject over the ones we have no democratic power over every single time.

    No one wants to isolate the UK. Are all the world's independent countries isolationists? I do think this 'homework' you have been doing is a little one sided.

    Democracy is a problem because it depends heavily on a thinking, questioning electorate and media industry. It however is far better than any other system in operation. That's why so many people are 'into it'.

    I've already told you ... Britain tried to reform the EU and it didn't work. The British vote is puny. Every member states vote is puny if it wants something the rest don't want and other European nations don't seem to want the same as we want. We should go our separate ways and we'll all be happier for it.

    Oh please, another groundless leap in logic. And there is no "we" in Britain. There are the many different groups of people who all want different things, but broadly speaking I'd say there are the people and the politicians and the groups they serve. Even if Britain spoke as one we'd still be totally powerless in any meaningful way in the EU and we'll be dead as a country worth living if we stay in.
     
  18. spt5

    spt5 New Member

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    I am thinking that every job exists because others buy its product. The overwhelming majority of British work is bought by the EU members.
    Why are you saying that democracy is better than its alternatives? Before democracy, you needed to be a stakeholder to have a power of decision. It is democracy's fault that this is now turned upside down, and both Britain and the EU are full of bums who vote whatever they are conned to vote for, because they hold no assets and lose nothing by voting however randomly, for the highest bidder/wiseass. I think I don't fully understand your concerns in this respect, because I don't understand why squatters and desperados should have a vote.
    I think it is easier to make deals with middle men in secure positions, than with those middle men that get randomly voted in and out of office in democratic elections. Plus I don't understand why you think you have more freedom with unelecting the strictly directed choices of candidates at the British national level, than dealing with the equally controlled EU level?
    How is it one sided? What do you think will happen the very day Britain decides to exit the EU? It is a no brainer, that the Scottish, the Welsh, and even the Cornish will suddenly see the Republic of Ireland as a more profitable partner than England, and they will immediately seceed to re-join the EU. And then what will the English do? Try to sell their beef export at a market where they have no more export privilege, or sell London's loan packages with biassed interest rates for a run-away domestic inflation, or try to travel to Europe to get a job that they lost at home, only to see that they are refused a work visa?
    This is true, and depressing, and proves that humanity is indeed stupid, those who control democracy understand, that democratic politics and society is a business of emotions, not thinking logic. The era of thinking ended when democratic ideals demolished the past.
    Yes you did, and this means that British academia at least in the field of social sciences has hopelessly buried itself into its own bubble. It would be easy for them to pick up some obvious opportunities, such as e.g. that most East European EU members think that the EU is a Franco-German alliance/empire. The British vote, forming a voting block with the East European members, could be some start. But I am not surprised that the British politics are stupid, they have never seen further than a real-estate game when about East Europe. Although the British can be forgiven, the British are only stupid, not evil like the French.
    This is true, if Britain plans to act alone. Not even the USA plans like this.
     
  19. tamora

    tamora New Member

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    Even if it were true that the majority of British work is bought by EU members (and it’s not) those jobs exist because of European trade, not the EU. You are aware that the EU has free trade deals with a lot of non-EU countries? The EU could try to start a trade war but this would be stupid given that the EU enjoys a huge trade deficit with the UK. Do you think European countries will stop selling us their goods? Will the European Commission try to block their exports to us? How do you think European countries would react if the EU Commission chose to jeopardise their jobs markets? No, trade would continue as before.

    Neither Britain nor the EU is ‘full of bums’. How insulting. We have our share of lifelong lazy people but disenfranchising ALL of us to punish the minority is never going to be acceptable. This country, England at least, has generally been a conservative country … we don’t vote for socialists much, but our major parties (who are also EU supporters) are all high tax/high spend parties and they are the only parties with the funds to get elected. It’s hard for a small party to grow, but that’s no reason to ditch democracy. It just means people who want change have to work a lot harder to promote the alternative party they prefer. This is becoming easier with social media sites and is why I am opposed to censorship of the internet.

    Don’t worry about us. We’re perfectly capable of negotiating trade deals.

    I can cast my vote for a different MP. If enough people do likewise we can get the government and crucially the policies changed in an independent country. (In EU member states national policies are shaped to fit with policies decided in EU institutions and these are superior to conflicting national policies.) I can cast my vote for a different MEP but I still have no hope of getting the policies changed. How then do you suppose I might deal with the EU? Presumably you think the EU’s institutions, including the ones ‘manned’ by national politicians and the ones not subject to re-election, are more interested in the wellbeing of European citizens than they are in their own interests? If so, we disagree.

    What an alarmist you are. Far from being a no-brainer, it’s highly speculative. Why would the Scots, the Welsh or the Cornish decide that the ROI (population 5 million) would be a more profitable partner than England (population 56 million)? Why would they secede from their most profitable trading partner right next door? They might even join the UK in leaving the EU or remain a part of the UK, mightn't they? Either way, it's up to them to decide.

    And your arguments come straight from the EU supporters’ playbook and they’re as old as the hills. That’s how they’re one sided. (Though I have to admit the Cornwall would look more favourably on the ROI than an independent UK or England is a one I hadn't heard!)

    As I said, democracy, despite its faults, beats anything else on offer. One only has to look the alternatives that have been tried so far. You must have heard the saying ‘"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Who do you think will restrain the EU without democratic controls?

    So as you think the British are stupid (and meek and weak) you will understand why I have no faith in the parties that have led us in this stupidity, meekness and weakness, and want them out? I have also looked for parties with policies I prefer and this has led me to UKIP faults and all.

    You’re missing the point. The British haven’t been totally alone in spending decades trying to reform it, but there simply isn’t enough will to change. The majority here just don’t want to be a part of a political union and that’s all that’s on offer from the EU. Other member states seem to want that, so what’s the point of acting with them when we want different things? At the very least we need a national debate as a precursor to a referendum on membership. Nor would we act alone on independence. I'd want to co-operate with other countries and the EU when it's to our mutual advantage.
     
    spt5 and (deleted member) like this.
  20. highlander

    highlander Banned

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    Mmmmm. You have nailed your Tory colours to your mast..... Again!

    Can I point out a number of problems with your submission.

    Apart from the obvious ukip Tory similarities.

    It's government policies taking down the wages and standards of living for the majority of the people's of the nations which make up the uk.
    The uk employment agency import for contracts people from the EC. It's not there problem they come here, the get breasted for minimum rate! The get housed, because they have too! I can give example that I know of, where young people have been paid off so imported labour can be employed.

    It's government decisions, it's for he benefit of the few!

    All at the expense of the majority.

    But you can go fight in foreign wars and be maimed to support there greed!

    Roll on 2014!

    So sorry, at least we have a choice!

    Regards
    Highlander
     
  21. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    I don't vote for the Conservative party.

    There are multiple private agencies which perform that function and are not related to the government.

    Good for you

    What? and it's their not there and quite frankly I think that you actually use English or don't bloody bother.

    We're getting a referendum in 2017

    And why on earth haven't you been permanently banned yet?
     
  22. highlander

    highlander Banned

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    You'll get a referendum if the Tories are re elected! And the mess they've made, they don't want to be re elected!
    You may ridicule my English, but you fully understand my submission, which must be eloquent and clear to get the reaction you normally display to my input!

    You have no NHS, you have no credence, you lot have been reported to the ICC for crimes against humanity, we'll forget the previous links to murder and torture in Ireland, even the secret prisons and rendition. You wish to lecture me on spelling when your aristocracies disgusting behaviours child abuse and heinous crimes, rampant and obvious, I'm sorry for you and the pride the English nation should feel for itself being ridiculed over the whole world!

    I'm proud of my identity, so should you!

    I'm not banned because I'm jimminy cricket in your lug!

    Highlander
     
  23. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    When you decide to present a clear and coherent argument which is is well researched and actually make proper use of English then I'll treat go back to treating you fairly.

    Yes I do and it's about 30 paces from me.

    My lot? And just who is that exactly? Who am I a member of?

    There's pride and there's fanaticism.
    I've no idea what that means.

    I'll report you for derailment and harassment if this continues.
     
  24. spt5

    spt5 New Member

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    Okay, you are right with this one, but only from a macroeconomic point of view, the individual economies of British individuals will suffer because of the loss of mobility.

    I guess there is a good reason why they are small. Both the British UKIP and the American Tea Party are simply reactionist movements. It is a well known and very profitable age-old strategy of leading national banks, to push people into reactionary movements, because this plays into the hands of the banks. For example, the two parties want national dept reduction, but they don't even realize that they are chasing a moving goal post, as if the money they borrow was theirs.

    I am an American, Britain is mine.

    So, for example, hypothetically, if a bunch of German Gypsies decide to block-vote in some Cornish independence, then, will that overwrite the UK policies about administering Cornwall? I don't see noticable results in EU policies overriding local policies of nation state members. Do I understand your point?
    It may be in the playbook because it is true. We leave in a world where integration is the ticket to the future, everywhere on Earth. Nationalistic isolationism has already lost everywhere.
    Democracy establishes absoulte power, it is called "the majority". There is nothing to check power in a democracy. But e.g. the Founding Fathers of the USA prevented this by creating a Republic instead of a democracy. The EU has better checks and balances than all those self-righteous democracies inside it.
    Okay, let me dial my tongue down a notch. Not really stupid meek and weak, only conned by a directionless reactionist party called UKIP/TeaParty that has only answers that the controlling banks want, none in the interest of working people/businesses. They are not a way out of the situation.
    What kind of reform are you talking about? If it is like the needs of something like Greece, then the UK can't just devalue the Pound like Greece could bring back its Drachma, because Greece may get investment influx with that, but the UK offsets that potential with its own domestic capital base and consumption, a losing proposition for an independent Britain. What do you mean?
     
  25. highlander

    highlander Banned

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    I'm only trying to remove the darkness that surrounds your closed book approach to historical facts.

    I hope this will allow you to understand the best Englishman born in the passed 200years was clement Attlee some one who Churchill wasn't fit to clean his boots.

    But you can lead a horse to water and all that...... The tea party isn't anything other than an American red herring of those less well educated.

    Regards
    Highlander
     

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