Give your philosophical and/or theological definition of these terms.

So I'm gonna list some different terms and ask for your personal definition of any, or all, of these terms. The amount of participation is entirely up to you, as is the amount of disagreement when openly stating your opinion. I don't want to state my opinions for fear of skewing the conversation (that's just good science ). So here are the terms, numbered in no particular order:

1. Soul -

2. Self -

3. Person -

4. God -

5. Awareness -

6. Consciousness -

7. Mind -

8. Perception -

9. Conception -

10. Sameness -


Anyone reserves the right to ask, at anytime, for further clarification to better understand your definition.

 

Are you equating "Philosophical and/or Theological definitions" to that of "personal definitions"? What if the 'personal definition' is the same as a definition found in a regular dictionary?

 

The dictionary had to have got it's definition from somewhere, right? Use the context that aptly applies to the discussion.

 

Yes! However that dictionary was not manufactured according to my likes and dislikes, therefore could not be my personal definition, nor would it necessarily be a Theological definition or a Philosophical definition. So, are those dictionary definitions to be considered as Theological or Philosophical? It is beginning to appear that the stage is being set for an argument on special pleading.... that is just a guess however.

 

I sort of see "dictionary definitions" as an "aid" to focus personal definitions. The dictionary definitions tend towards grammar and linguistic uses of a particular word. Philosophical and Theological dictionaries have definitions specific to the context of their fields. A personal definition isn't confined to just one field, but also may integrate from several different contextual fields. But the context in which someone uses a definition might tell more about that person than the meaning of the word itself.

 

I'll try to make my own definitions as clear as possible the first time around so there isn't any confusion...
1. Soul - What you are inside, as cheesy as it sounds. The thing that makes you a being, physical or not; your core in terms of personality, consciousness, etc.

2. Self - Your soul and physical body together, as one. I don't know why, I always just interpreted it to mean it this way.

3. Person - something capable of conscious thought and feeling. Includes animals.

4. God - Since all the other words are capitalized, I'm not sure if the capitalization here means the God (as Christians think of it) or if you simply meant god, as in an unspecified deity of some kind. In any case, it more or less means a higher power of some kind to me. Could be one, could be many. Who knows. Could be something else entirely, like fate or whatever. In short, just a higher supernatural power of some kind. I have a number of personal beliefs on the matter, but as far as the word itself is concerned, that's how I define it.

5. Awareness - from a philosophical or religious perspective: knowledge of the universe and your place in it.

6. Consciousness - thoughts, memories, and feelings of a person; not their soul, which is who they are, but the inner workings of the mind that help make up the soul.

7. Mind - Thoughts and memories, ability to reason; imho, more or less another word for consciousness.

8. Perception - how we view things around us, or how we interpret events that happen in our lives.

9. Conception - the creation of a soul or person...not sure what I personally believe about this, because I've never thought about this word from this perspective, but I suppose that would be my definition...

10. Sameness - Literally no idea. If I had to think on the spot, perhaps the way in which the body, mind, and soul are all in tune with one another (or should be, at any rate). Your insides should match your outsides, haha.

I have a weird way of thinking of things. Hope this doesn't sound too off the wall.

 

All of theses are concepts that I could not easily define. For example God: a theological intangible. But this is ridiculously inadequate definition for such a broad subject. A better definition would be the much more in-depth wikipedia examination of God with all associated links from the main page on God.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God

For the most part I find dictionary definitions of theological, philosophical, and ideological concepts to be dreadfully inadequate.

 

1. Soul - a word used to describe a concept made up by folk who think they're too special to die

2. Self - one's person

3. Person - another's person

4. God - a word used to describe a concept made up by folk who think they're too special to die

5. Awareness - awake, and able to smell roses

6. Consciousness - not unconscious

7. Mind - the doings of the brain

8. Perception - the colour of the information received, added in transit.

9. Conception - whoops

10. Sameness - American sitcoms

 

My answers are embedded as red letter comments to conserve bandwidth.

 

I personally, wouldn't have started with the convoluted definition of God. All of the traditional "omni's" make it too undefinable for my taste. Start with something like Sameness. Something that we so take for granted that we barely even have an examinable definition for it.

 

Interesting how you connect these specific terms. If I were to draw a linear map, then the thing that resides in the other things would go like this:

Conception > Soul > Self > Mind > Consciousness.

Interesting that you infer that Consciousness, or specifically Self Consciousness, is so far down the order of operations as to require many operations before it can exist. Thanks for your input.

- - - Updated - - -

I honestly never considered defining a Person as another's person. Cool.

So true.

 

Interesting. In your definition, this is the thing responsible for nebulous things like moral judgements. Would you say that it depends on your definition of Consciousness to be able to accomplish these sophisticated processes?

Why would you default to the materialistic paradigm of molecules when refuting the idea of Sameness? Even if a molecule is the same as another, what difference does it make about it's general location in a body?

 

"5. Awareness - The ability to detect things without focusing directly on those things. Example: While typing this message I am aware of other things going on around me even though I am not focusing on those things.

6. Consciousness - Similar to Awareness, however focus is more inwardly than outwardly.. more in tune to that which is not physical ... Example: how I regard what I am writing.. the ability to analyze inwardly the appropriateness of my chosen words. Awareness and Consciousness work hand in hand as collaborators in the maintaining of the physical, mental and spiritual well being.

7. Mind - That part of man that is given to man by God as a personalized Garden where man plants the seeds that will grow and produce fruit according to the type of seeds that are sown in that garden or allowed to grow in that garden. Each of us have the tedious duty of monitoring that garden area and to maintain that garden ... if you sow the seeds from weeds, then weeds is what that garden will produce... if you sow seeds that are a nourishment to body and soul, then you will receive the fruits of kindness, gentleness, charity, love, peace, understanding, compassion, etc. as well as the nutrients that are necessary for the healing and continued health of the body. The old adage comes to mind... you are what you consume."

I suppose I should have stated that all three of those listed above work hand in hand. You are provided with a choice (free will) of what seeds you want to grow in that garden. Notice also within that definition of consciousness, is included the statement "Awareness and Consciousness work hand in hand as collaborators in the maintaining of the physical, mental and spiritual well being."

Well, even in that Heavenly realm, Satan found out that two entities cannot occupy the same space at the same time... He found out when he got cast out of heaven for even attempting to accomplish such a feat. As above, so below. My choice of using the material realm as an example was merely a matter of spontaneity. Now the real question is this: What makes you think that I was refuting the idea of 'sameness'.? The idea is the idea, and will remain an idea. However the ability of the idea to manifest is another story altogether. As per my example of Satan being cast out of Heaven.... He could not manifest the idea that he held regarding occupying or usurping the throne of God.

 

In the blue...I'm curious how you wiggled "free will" in these definitions without explicitly defining it? Are Mind, Consciousness, and Awareness dependent on Free Will, or the other way around?

I guess you weren't refuting Sameness after further evaluation. Satan was constrained by space and time? Are you sure that is not just a projection on your part, or is it an inextricable part of Satan's nature to be constrained this way?

 

First let me give you my off the cuff definition. Sameness: two or more items with identical properties.

A dictionary term (note that I did not say "the" dictionary term) : the quality or state of being alike or of not changing.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sameness

 

Well, first of all, you never requested a definition of 'free will'. "Free will" would be the unlimited operating parameter assigned to the will of man existing within the man.. Not to be construed as controlled in any way by the will of God, but always subordinate to the will of God." Mind, Consciousness, and Awareness (IMHO) are sub-groupings of "Free Will".

According to scripture and my current understanding of those scripture, Satan is permanently constrained in that manner ... always constrained by the Will of God.

 

"Identical properties" is a harsh standard in my opinion. You can take a group of circles with two squares in the mix and point out the Sameness of the two squares regardless of their size/color or exact properties. The inherent Sameness of the two squares is what alerts it to your...mind.

Or am I wrong?

 

Correct, I did not. That's why I'm curious as to why you bring it up.

Free will is a "range" of "values"? To choose one value is to reject the other values?

There are lots of sneaky assumptions here. Would "will of a man" fall under any of your definitions of Soul, Mind, Consciousness, or Awareness? The man, there in, should I make any assumptions about it's nature? I.e. is it the Self? What is the "man" that is assigned with the "will of man"?

So "Free Will" is necessary for the existence of Mind, Consciousness, and Awareness? Isn't Free Will just an operation of these objects? You stated earlier that these objects are a result of the operation of Free Will. Can you please explain the distinction?

So the Will of God constrains time and space, else Satan could dominate the time space continuum. So that brings to question the consistency of time and space, and why God preserves it in light of the threat of Satan. Obviously, Satan's threat is minimal compared to the preservation of space and time. Otherwise we should expect it's disruption to eliminate the threat of Satan. But, presumably, since that hasn't happened we can continue to make assumptions about how space and time could be disrupted. Am I off base here?

 

You are right as I like the Webster definition much more than my own. Webster uses "alike" rather then "identical" which IMO is a better fit for the definition. The reason I even presented my knee-jerk definition was to highlight for myself just how off my snap assessment can be.

 

They may be short but I try not to complicate definitions more than I need to. I can expand upon this ideas if asked.

 

1. Soul - A concept of one's life force as a separate non-physical entity from one's physical body. Some believe the soul to be immortal. Some do not. The soul concept tends to vary based upon one's religious beliefs. There is no empirical observational evidence of which I am aware that substantiates the existence of the soul as anything more than an abstract idea.

2. Self - The individual entity who is currently responding to your question. The totality of my mind and my body is my "self". When I gaze into a mirror, my mind incorporates my sensory inputs to form a mental image of my body and understands that it dwells within my body and that we are one.

3. Person - A fellow human being.

4. God - The source of life. A concept of either a supernatural being (or beings), or of a universal presence that is the prime mover of the reality that we experience as living beings. For some, God is merely the concept of all that exists.

5. Awareness - A state of observing, recognizing patterns within one's sensory input stream, and thereby effectively predicting cause and effect within one's environment in order to respond in a manner that promotes one's continued existence.

6. Consciousness - The normal state of reacting to observations and calculating responses in real time in order to determine one's actions. The opposite of unconsciousness, in which sensory perception from one's body is not being actively processed by one's mind. Of course, there are a range of conscious states that one might experience, as opposed to the binary states of consciousness or unconsciousness.

7. Mind - The source of intelligence. That aspect of our beings which observes sensory input, stores memories of past experiences and seeks to find order in chaos. Also the source of emotional feelings, such as happiness, fear, anger or despair. My mind is not my physical brain, but there is ample evidence to indicate that one's mind could not operate without the presence of a functional physical brain.

8. Perception - A model of our objective reality formed by the reception of sensory input and the mind's response to that input based upon stored memories of past experiences and learned rules associated with those memories.

9. Conception - The formation within one's mind of a new idea. A method of comparing past experiences with newly gained information in order to form a hypothesis regarding the nature of a previously unknown process or entity.

10. Sameness - Having common attributes. Having distinct characteristics that identify an object or an abstract idea as being a member of a particular group. Sameness is a relative property. A square is more like a rectangle than is a triangle. A cat is more like a dog than is a goldfish.

 

You guys go through lots of hoops in order to avoid what's well known already. Pointless. Just nitpicking over overly idiosyncratic definitions. That ground has been trod already by minds far greater than yours.

I'ts all there, in the great books, just crack them open for a change! We're currently reading Les Miserables, by Victor Hugo, published the same year our alma mater was established, 1862... the verities are eternal and timeless. Seriously, if you can handle a long-term reading proposition, you ought to.

And no, we will not take any caviling over this post. Done and forgotten. Word to the wise.

 

This answer lacks a great deal of hyperbolic doubt. You refer many times to a "you" in your definitions. What makes those "you's" respond?

 

Would it help you to better understand if I were to say "The Holy Spirit told me to put it in that line of script"?

Yeah! You know, like black and white, 'yes' or 'no' like so many people on this forum like to do. In other words, you either have free will or you don't. You choose. It is made available.

Actually, there are no 'assumptions' within Christianity. Either you are or you are not a Christian. Any assumption would be on the part of the human mind. No! The 'will of man' would not fall under any of the definitions of those terms, because those terms are a sub set of 'free will'. 'the man'... = bad terminology on my part. Not paying attention to what I am told to write.... too many distractions with the Grandchildren running around earlier this evening.

Not for the existence of the mind, consciousness and awareness, but to enable those functions to operate in a manner that is free from the input of God or the Holy Spirit.

Read the story of Job. God had to give permission to Satan in order for Satan to intervene in the life affairs of Job. So yes, God constrains time and space to the extent you have described. You can continue to make any and all presumptions and assumptions that you like.... Free Will... That free will of course does not mean that things will work out like you want them to,,,, so if one is not working in accord with the plans God has established, then when things don't work out the way you want them to, it would behoove you to take that matter up with the other guy causing you to think that they should work out the way you want them to.
I am being facetious on most of my responses, as I detect a note of cynicism mixed with sarcasm and here and there a loaded question or two.