If I was Prime Minister

Its not news to me, and was covered by the media at the time. From memory flight 655 did not respond to repeated communication requests from the US ships and Iranian ATC could not or did not verify its identify - leaving the USS Vincennes with no other option but to fire upon the potential threat as it approached. The only reason the US paid compensation and apologized is because they did fire the missile, and civilians did get killed. Unfortunately it was an accident caused by various factors which actually point to incompetence of the aircrew and Iranian ATC... but that is just from memory.

I think that is a bad example of the point you were trying to make, can you try again to show me this US propoganda war machine? I can think of one textbook example but it was done for strategic reasons during wartime for security reasons. You do know the western media is 'free' dont you? Go to countries like Russia and China with its state owned media and you get the real machinery for propoganda.

 

Call it what you like, entering another country's territory with armed soldiers without that country's consent is an act of war. You might be right that it's justified, but you're effectively saying "screw your sovereignty, what we want takes precedent". Right or wrong, no country would tolerate that, especially Australia.

So if you don't intend on declaring war you might want to cooperate beforehand.

 

I have a feeling you are not that naive, and I am not that gullible, to believe that a commercial airline pilot, with numerous years of experience, would deliberately ignore radio contact with a military craft demanding their identification.

How many people own and control western media? Are you seriously suggesting western media is "free" form the same machinery of proaganda as China & Russia, when it suits a political purpose?

Not one Australian journalist or reporter has the ethical or moral right to call themselves a journalist or reporter anymore. They were told to appear on TV, and accuse the Pro-Russian separatists to downing flight MH 17; linking Russia to providing them with the weapons, without offering "ONE" credible bit of evidence to the people they were reporting too.

I watched these journalists report from the crash site, saying separatists were detaining people, firing guns, and refusing access to the area, but TV footage showed them only about 10 metres from the wreckage. LOL I have never known a "powder puff" reporter to endanger their own lives by setting one foot in a danger zone, unless they know its 100% safe to do so. Could that be the foul stench of over-kill propaganda?

This has never been about the innocent people killed on flight MH 17, its always been about the USA trying to use a smoke-screen to crash the Russian economy, because Russia, China and many other countries want to move away from using US pertodollars.

The honest journalists within the western media need to stop being US puppets, and start reporting the real truth, as per their profession.

 

In my scenario I did get permission

 

"Mr Poroshenko, at this point in time a small contingent of SAS operatives are preparing to travel to your country. They come with all hopes of a full co-operation from your government and it's forces."

I took that as meaning "we're sending troops, cooperate or we'll come anyway". My bad.

 

There is no need to get personal at me just because you might be wrong

Aircrew are usually busy with talking to air traffic control, reporting positions, or listening to other aircraft on area frequancies so it is most likely they 1. were not monitoring civilian emergency channels like they should have been, or 2. thought the messages were for someone else and ignored them.

Apparently "ten attempts were made to contact Iran Air flight 655: seven on military frequencies and three on commercial frequencies". The fact they tried to contact the aircraft probably is a good indication they were not trying to blow a jet out of the sky for sh$ts and giggles ie an accident as a result of various failures in procedure but importantly done so in an act of self defense. That versus Russia running an increasingly high tech insurgency to annex other peoples territory without properly trained insurgents.

 

It`s easy to dream up quaint little scenarios, but in the real world, the governing factors of international protocol are highly complex. Particularly in this instance, there are so many hypothetical scenarios that could be projected at this early stage, this will take time. As Abbot stated "Putin has said all the right words, but now we have to see how he acts". The worst thing we could have right now, would be to have a Government that panicked, that failed to do the hard yards diplomatically. I don`t have much faith in the UN either, but in this case, hopefully, it might be possible to determine the guilty parties, and hit them hard.

 

Have a read of this, folks...

http://charter97.org/en/news/2014/4/28/96514/

Why was this particular plane shot down.....wouldnt have anything to do with 3.6 trillion cubic metres of
gas in Donetsk

 

I didn't think I was getting personal. It was expressing a belief that I was hoping adults who post on this forum have advanced intellectually beyond the naivety and gullibility of a 7 year old.

Doesn't it stand to reason that before blowing a civilian plane (flight 655) out of the sky, that the USS Vincennes should have contacted the plane directly on "its" correct designated channel and frequency? That would not have been a hard task to accomplish for a technogically sophisticated military craft like the Vincennes.

Its understandable why the pilot ignored the response from the Vincennes, if the Vincennes never contacted the plane of it designated channel, because it would be like someone mucking around on a CB radio.

You know this is a transparent US created smokescreen to fool the general public into believing Russia is this evil enemy we all have to hate. The USA has savaged Russia internationally for only one reason. The Russians are building a league of countries who are in the process of abandoning the petrodollar, which is going to make the US greenback as valuable as the Mexican peso.

On a personal note, its time Australians stopped being the USA's anal crack whores, and looked at other international communities as their role models, because the USA is no loner the best country in the world, and if we keep following & trying to emulate them, we are going to find ourselves in the bottom of the barrel, just like them.

 

Are you referring to the "Gulf of Tonkin incident"? The Gulf of Tonkin and flight 655 are just two easy examples, where is the USA has been caught red-handed falsifying information, and been involved in dodgy stuff.

 

Yea and most 7 yea olds can read.... did you read your own link?

It said " the Vincennes at that time had no equipment suitable for monitoring civil aviation frequencies, other than the International Air Distress frequency. Subsequently U.S. Navy warships in the area were equipped with dialable VHF radios, and access to flight plan information was sought, to better track commercial airliners".

So to further what I've already explained to you, the Iranian aircrew should have been monitoring the distress freq, but also the Iranian military would have heard the Vincennes warnings on those 7 mil frequencies... so they could have liaised with civil ATC or contacted the aircraft directly also. It's called an accident, if you can bring yourself to break out of reinforced delusional beliefs then your arguments might not reek of conspiracy anti-US hippie-ness.

Are you imagining that, because the USSR lost the Cold War due to mismanagement and a basically completely failed system of government and society, and the US did not 'savage' them. There are plenty of filthy rich Russian's around the place and I think you'd find (if you looked with unbiased eyes) that the reason Russia is going backwards is because its USSR culture of corruption and greed hung around and rotted out the efforts of post-USSR Russia to become a viable modern nation. Nows its sliding backwards into garbage and the best you can do is blame the US because its wealthier and near or at the top of a global economy? Lol, its an easy argument for the disenfranchised because it requires no brain or effort... pure victim mentality.

Poor people always complain about it being other peoples fault... but its most often their own fault. Its why the really longterm homeless people cannot stay in accomodation, because they've gripped so tight to the victim mentality they cannot trust anyone else anymore. Its not a healthy habit, even though its part of the ALP and Union toolkit to incite emotional contagion. I'd recommend logic and evidence to guide ones views for a sounder mental health outloook longterm. Just sayin

 

Lets agree to disagree about the real motives behind flight 655.

I believe the factual evidence produced in my "Gulf of Tonkin incident" establishes a patten that the USA Government are prior offenders at manipulating information and the truth for their own selfish agendas, at the expense and complete disregard for innocent human life.

To believe that the US would send an antiquated vessal into a combat situation with limited radio & radar capabilities into the Middle East war zone, and not one of their technologically "state-of-the-art" vessals, is reverting to the naviety of a 7 year old.

Why would anyone believe that the US navy is going to tell the truth about the missile that fired on flight 655 and their ships capability, when they lied so easily about the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

I'm not sure if you have been to Russia, but we were there in 2011, and it seemed anything but a stagnant, backward, third world country. The people we friendly & happy, and the country was clean and progressing - and yes, we did look beyond the tourist strip.

You know this issue about flight MH 17 is nothing than a smoke screen created by the USA to either crash or confine the Russian economy, because Russia & China have already signed a contract, and started to move away from using petrodollars. Even Turkey has joined Russia & China to away from using the petrodollar. The USA knows if they can damage the Russian economy enough, then China cannot make this move away from the US monopoly controlled petrodollar (scam) on their own.

Why don't the media give this a few minutes of air time, or are "they" just as controlled by their masters behind the curtin pulling the strings, as they claim State owned media is?

 

In the golfing world, the Russian Open starts today in Moscow....
Dont hit your drive into the bunker on the 14th...they've hidden a rocket launcher in there....

 

At least the Russians are not cowards and have the launchers on their own soil. The USA have placed their launchers on every other countries soil - including Australia's. So they can get hit first before the good old US of A?

 

Obama looks like a Saint compared to Putin. Do you know what the Russians control?
I hate modern US for what they did post WW2, however compared to Russia they still might look good..Cheerio

 

What I don't like, is this naïve idea a lot of people have about the USA being this kind hearted old grandmother giving out lollies and sweets to children; when nothing could be further from reality of the truth. If you look at the behaviour of the USA over the past Century, then I believe they are as worse than countries they bad-mouth and condemn.

 

Apparently? or they did? All aircraft, civil and military record all radio transmissions. If they did, say so, if they do not say they did, then they didn't because if they did they would say so. I would be pretty p1ssed if I was shot down because someone apparently tried to contact me.

 

Kind hearted old grandmothers tempting children into childhood obesity and diabetes aren`t what they`re cracked up to be either. They don`t hurt anyone themselves, but they love to watch the blood flow. PMSL

 

I think simply blaming the US for European policy regarding Russia is simply being too short sighted of the realities if what is happening. Sure US is supporting the European Union over this affair but the fact is the EU has continued to pursue an isolation policy against Russia for some time.

BUT the point really is that the EU has the most expansive economic system around the world today. Obviously the hit of Greece and Spain on the Union has hurt. Gaining the allegiance of Ukraine would have been a coup for them had Russia not pushed back. The US, in its shoot first and ask questions later jumped in without thought to support what appeared to be the right thing to do. Now it is too late to stop and they are supporting the EU even though eventually it will grow to rival its own.

This issue has built the preamble for a war to rival past events. Note the ONLY regime to back off is Russia but the opposition continues to push harder. The world is in flux at present with Middle East slowly building to all-out war and countries cementing its own allegiance will only lead to one thing. When you look at what has been occurring around the world you have to be worried.

When have sanctions NOT led to war???

Make no mistake, IF this continues another war will occur and this time Australia will be fighting it on its own land. You will be surprised what countries line of on whose side and this time the US and Australia might not win. You have war wiry nations (regardless of what you believe) facing nations who have fresh armies with a belief of protecting its own people. Armies which have vast troop capabilities and major technologies that have the backing of their nations to protect their own interests. This is not as cut and dry as one might think.

While everybody is busy blaming the US they are giving the real perpetrators for this issue a free pass to continue to marginalise nations who do not join their idea of what is best for them.

 

I agree that the EU have warranted concerns over Russia's monoploy over massive natural resource reserves. For the US to physically interfere in another Continent's political situation does not help. Especially when the USA has always seen one of the countries on that Continent (Russia) as their major economic and military rival. The situation is also not helped by the facts that both countries have never liked each other due to the vast cultural differences of communism and capitalism.

I don't think the USA fully understands or comprehends just how many countries around the world have a deep-seeded anomosity towards them. The USA in the 20th Century and the 21st Century have acted no different than the Romans of antiquity. When the Romans/USA conqured a town/village or country; that town/village or country immediatley became Roman/USA. The inhabitants might of had the delusion they were free and independent, but the Romans/USA always established military bases on vanquished territories, and the Romans/USA always made sure they controlled the conqured countries politicians. Even when a country was not conqured by the Romans/USA, the inhabitants of that country were always forced to pay physical and financial homage for the illusion of military protection.

Look at the humilitating things Australian's are forced into doing so they can hide under the US military skirts of protection. Our Australian puppet politicians on the instructions to spy for the USA, have sent over 120 Federal police to secure an area in Ukraine, who don't know the country; the terrrain or the language, but expected to secure the area - LOL Even other EU country called Australia's actions "nuts", and wondering why Australia is making a bigger "song 'n' dance" about flight MH 17 than the Malaysians, who also lost civilians and the plane.

The USA have destroyed two sovereign countries (Iraq & Afghanistan) purely for their selfish greed for oil, and those countries natural resources.

In the past 100 years, how many innocent deaths and political manipulation has the USA caused and created for their own selfish agenda, thats been passed off under the disguise of help and empathy.

The USA has had 100 years of also marginalising countries who don't join their idea of what is best for them.

Rome fell, and the world's population didn't disappear. Maybe its time for the world to experience a change with the fall of the USA.

 

The real question is who and what is going to step into the place of the US. While the US has expansive nature so far NOTHING I have seen can match the EU. The constant pursuit of nations to be enveloped in the EU has seen new heights. The fact the US is busy supporting these pursuits of the EU only go to show they have not considered their position in this entire situation. Especially considering the very point you raise about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but if this continues the war will be far different than those previous examples.

I think you should be proud of your Australian government with its stand on the MH17 diplomacy. Sure many nations are talking about how it is being handled and their opinions of what they think of it BUT the fact that such a small nation is being spoken about actually demonstrates how much Australia is considered around the world. Some nations consider Australia "NUTS" but many are supportive, and frankly Australia is not the most outspoken even considering sitting on the defence council. They only appear so due to the media coverage given for such.

 

I have never once suggested that Russia is a shining example for every other country to emulate, but for Australia's Government to accuse and condemn Russia of direct involvement in flight MH 17 without any proof or evidence, clearly demonstrates what intellectual fools the Australian people vote into represent them; not only in local matters, but in world affairs. This is not the first time Australian politicians have "over-reached" their intelligence on the world stage, and looked internationally asinine.

Remember Swan trying to tell everyone in the EU how to manage their finances during the GFC? Then he was told in no uncertain words to basically p.i.s.s-off back under his rock.

For a small country like Australia that is geographically isolated from the rest of the world, and relies on world trade, to publically accuse a massive country like Russia (part of the EU community) without one bit of proof or evidence that Russia basically had their finger on the trigger that fired the missile; was the most incomprehensibly, damaging, immature and stupid comments from any politician I have had the privilige of listening too.

Thank you Julie Bishop and Tony Abbot for creating a new low in Australian international politics and diplomacy.

Just remember what Abbott & Bishop have done. They blamed Russia for supplying the Russian separatists with military weapons, and then went further by accusing Russia that they were responsible and accountable for what the separatists "might" have done.

Maybe before Abbott and Bishop opened their big-mouths, they should have educated themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

If WW3 happens, I think the USA might find themselves alone, because of all the countries they have alienated over the past 100 years.

The following link is a small insight into just how devious and deceitful the US really is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident

I have no real animosity towards the USA, but maybe its time for a changing of the guard. When you think about it, the USA with its superior financial and military might since WW2 really has done "nothing" to make the world a better place for everyone to live in. The USA have created wars but stopped none, and have not helped anyone unless there is some advantage in it for them.

Besides free aid, when was the last time the USA actually helped citizens being murdered and being killed in their own countries by despot Governments, when there was no resource rewards or anything major in it for them? I personally cannot name one occasion.

http://nigeriaworld.com/feature/article/slcrisis.html

 

CD,
we will never stop licking our biggest Allies butt,not under the Labor, and most certainly not under the Liberals. Most likely, but not too sure, under the Greens.
I do agree, that its time to grow up and to live our own life, find our own idendity, but when it comes to our ill grown relationship with the US, I doubt it will change during my life span....
Regards

 

All you need is an akrubra hat, and a bubble to put it on, and the rest of the world will fall at your feet.

 

Its really sad Australian social construction and its people are underpinned by furry animals, the "one-liners" of that stupid Paul Hogan, and now stupid politicians.