Why Should Men Have ANY Say In Abortion? Part 2

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Pasithea, Aug 7, 2014.

  1. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    TBH on a personal level I really don't think that the personhood or when it occurs is really that relevant to abortion.. In fact through the research I have done it actually strengthens the case in favour of abortion and that the state should pay for it.
     
  2. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    Well, it would stop all the "abortion is murder" malarkey.
     
  3. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    I just tend to treat such comments as "abortion is murder" with the irrelevance it deserves while pointing out that murder is purely a legal term and as abortion doesn't fit that legal term their usage is disingenuous and intentionally dishonest.
     
  4. The Sentinel

    The Sentinel Active Member

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    I've never asked that. If you really, sincerely thought that was what I was asking then you're mistaken and you completely misunderstood the question and point I've been making, even though I've explained it several times.
     
  5. The Sentinel

    The Sentinel Active Member

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    If that's the criteria then it's not really a person until puberty.
     
  6. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    I functioned in exactly the same way before puberty as I do now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You've just asked questions and not liked the answers.
     
  7. The Sentinel

    The Sentinel Active Member

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    Really? So you could procreate before you reached puberty? You must be different from the rest of us.

    I've been engaging in honest debate. You and another poster here have just been engaging in passive aggressive behavior . . . which is normal for people who know they're defending an untenable position.
     
    Pasithea and (deleted member) like this.
  8. Pasithea

    Pasithea Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    Oh man did you hit the nail on the head there!
     
  9. Pasithea

    Pasithea Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    And I don't think anyone here is saying men should have the power to force a woman to have an abortion or to even force her to give birth.

    What we are arguing for is for men to have the right to sign away any and all parental rights to a child they never intended to have in the first place. We do not want to take away a woman's right to make her own decisions over her own autonomy. We do however want to take away her legal right to extort money from her sperm donor if he wants nothing to do with the child or her. That is what you seem to be failing to understand.

    We are not arguing against women's rights to have an abortion, we are arguing against a woman's (current) legal right to extort money from the man she slept with.
     
  10. Cady

    Cady Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But your "tenable" position is that a man should be legally free to impregnate a woman and then skip away leaving the whole mess for her to cope with, and taxpayers to finance...
     
  11. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    WHO has an untenable position??!!! Those who think laws will be passed to allow men to escape their responsibility to their own children....:)


    Got one passed yet ?!!!! :) :) Going to get one passed ? :):)
     
  12. Pasithea

    Pasithea Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    Just one of the many reasons why women have a right to have an abortion. We are the only ones who can get pregnant in this situation. If we don't want the burden of raising a child alone and fatherless, abort! It is the only responsible and logical thing to do in this situation!
     
  13. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    HOW does a woman extort money from a man she slept with????

    Blackmail? Threatening to tell his wife?

    Threatening to go to the media???

    How? Where is this law that gives women the legal right to extort money from a man she slept with ???
     
  14. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    for god's sake. Some people can't procreate afterwards. I kept myself alive in the same way I do now. Some people need the aid of machines to function, but they still use their own bodies to do it.



    Nonsense. You've just attempted to flame, which is what you're doing now.
     
  15. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, they have. They say because men can't have abortions, women shouldn't be able to either. That would somehow equalise the situation.

    Why? It wouldn't make the embryo disappear. It wouldn't end the pregnancy. They would become fathers, whether they like it or not.

    No, I do understand it I simply believe it's a false argument.

    She doesn't have the right to extort money.. She has the right to insist the father of her children pay towards their upkeep. They are not legally obliged to do anything else.
     
  16. Pasithea

    Pasithea Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    If a man does not pay child support he will typically spend time in jail or prison for not paying. That is a threat. Our legal system currently supports this form of extortion because most judges and courts are of the mind that women are feeble and lesser persons, second class citizens really, that are incapable of taking responsibility for their own choices (i.e. the choice to give birth).

    I am of the opinion that we are NOT feeble, or lesser persons, nor second class citizens and that women are better than this and are capable of standing up and taking their own lives into their hands and making better choices and not forcing their one night stands or ex-boyfriends into indentured servitude to them. We have the right to work! We have the right to choose to become mothers or not if we so wish! We have so much and continue to fight for more rights! But we should not have the right to legally extort money from any man we slept with. No human being should be forced to become a parent against their will. Consent to sex is neither consent to pregnancy nor consent to parenthood!

    All children should be wanted children and all children deserve better than to be born into this BS welfare system as well. We as women have the power to put off birth, to put off motherhood and make better choices for ourselves and our children. Committed relationships and consenting partners should always come first before choosing to bring innocent kids into this world. They deserve better than angry and spiteful parents who hate each other and are furious over custody battles and child support payments.

    But instead we continue to allow a horrible welfare system perpetuate itself and grind out more fatherless kids and more angry parents. Why? What is the point of it? There are so many more reasons I am against forced parenthood than just equality, I am for it because in the end it forces us to face our choices and actions and take responsibility for them and make better choices. It forces us to truly think before we act and it ultiomately creates more dependable and responsible human beings.
     
  17. Cady

    Cady Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Some women don't have the choice to abort. Even now, in Texas where lawmakers have made legal abortion impossible for those too poor to travel, women don't have a choice. Some women are victims of reproductive coercion by abusive partners, and others have been convinced by religious leaders that abortion is murder. Legally yes, but in practicality, many of the poor, victims of domestic abuse, and religious pro-choice do not.
     
  18. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    Cheek. They didn't give birth by spontaneous combustion. A man played his part.

    Children always have two parents.



    It could be for a man.

    In an ideal world that might happen. It's nothing to do with women being feeble, but with children being expensive.

    Well, then you should support fathers being made to help support their children.

    Allowing men to father as many children as they feel like then walk away scot free, is hardly a step in the right direction.
     
  19. Pasithea

    Pasithea Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    Well I thoroughly disagree with that opinion. I stand firmly against the violation of anyone's bodily autonomy or their rights to make full medical decisions about it. However I also still stand firmly against the belief that anyone should be forced to be parents solely because a woman chose to give birth.

    Perhaps you and I think of the term father differently. You see there is a difference between a biological father and a father. A biological father could just be the guy who knocked up your mom and was never around, he could be the guy who donated sperm to a sperm bank and that resulted in your existence. But a real father is someone who chose to be and wants to be a part of the child's life whether that kid is really his or not. He is there for you when you need him most and cares for you no matter what. He could be a biological father or even an adoptive one, but he is a true father.

    What makes a parent is someone who is actually willing to parent.

    How is it a false argument? :neutral:

    In fact...what IS a false argument?

    Which is wrong in my opinion. If he does not want to be a father, either financially or lovingly, however you want to put it, he should not be forced to.

    If a woman wants a baby so bad and for the father to care for it she should find a willing partner!
     
  20. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    It's nothing to do with force. If a man has children, then he is a father.

    But your actual father is your biological father. You carry his genes. A man can donate his sperm and officially he won't be the father, so has no obligations. But he is still a father. It must be a weird feeling.

    No, it doesn't. That makes a good parent, certainly.

    A false argument is one that is based on a false premise. Yours is that women have rights men don't. That's not true.

    He just has to pay to help support his children. That's because his children have needs that need providing. Food, shelter, warmth, clothing and so on.

    And if a man wants to avoid the responsibilities of fatherhood, he should make sure he doesn't become one.
     
  21. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    First, "sleeping with" and "being impregnated by" are two different things (hope ya know the difference!)


    Second: "shoulds " are for idealistic, unrealistic plans that only can be accomplished by changing human nature which will never happen...
     
  22. The Sentinel

    The Sentinel Active Member

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    You're implying here that it's okay to give one group of people with certain biological traits in society unequal control over others' livelihoods just because it saves tax payers money.
     
  23. Cady

    Cady Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm not implying anything. It'a your stated position.
     
  24. The Sentinel

    The Sentinel Active Member

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    This type of snarky response is reminiscent of the mean-spirited taunting made by people against women and minorities in history, who knew that they had little chance of succeeding in gaining equal treatment under the law any time in the near future, if not their entire lifetimes.

    You're on the wrong side of history.

    If you really care about women and children so much, you'd spend more time arguing for more education and access to contraception and abortion, and not using the lack of it in some places as an excuse to support other injustices in the status quo.
     
  25. The Sentinel

    The Sentinel Active Member

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    Aren't you? :roll:

    No it's not. It's your spin on my position. There's no point in pretending you're not saying anything when you clearly are.
     

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