You Will Know Them by Their Fruits

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by prospect, Oct 11, 2014.

  1. prospect

    prospect New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    2,796
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I have to say, this one simple verse is a tough one for me and as much as I love Jesus and all of his words, this is one I seem to be in disagreement with him. I'm sorry to my fellow Christians if this offends you because I am going to be playing devil's advocate on this,which I don't like to do but here it is.

    I agree that "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit." That seems pretty black and white when it comes to trees, but how can this really be used as a metaphor towards people ? In my life I have known plenty of people that have brought forth both good and bad "fruit." So people are a gray area,are they not ? Otherwise, how can I explain a preacher that has devoted his life to doing many good works, and then went bad, let's say he fell from the faith and did something very bad, it happened/happens.. Even so, this would be a good man doing good things and then bad, which is not like the good tree that can never produce bad..

    Any rebuttals ?
     
  2. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2008
    Messages:
    28,370
    Likes Received:
    9,297
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    SEE: The Catholic Church
     
  3. prospect

    prospect New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    2,796
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I am not of any particular Church or denomination, I just want opinions or answers about the verse in the Bible. This is not a Catholic thing, or even a Church thing, just a Bible thing.
     
  4. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    54,812
    Likes Received:
    18,482
    Trophy Points:
    113
    the vast majority of humans are a mix of good and bad. that biblical passage is just simplistic black and 'kid think'.
     
  5. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2012
    Messages:
    29,682
    Likes Received:
    3,995
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The passage applies to Abraham, who is considered as the source of three religions although he never really did anything religious. Abraham was a liar, thief, coward, sexual pervert, murderer, lousy father. He's exactly the type of person described in Revelation 22:15 who will be kept out of the gaudy bejeweled golden cube called New Jerusalem. He was a bad tree.
     
  6. prospect

    prospect New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    2,796
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Right, good and bad and both capable of both good and bad,very much unlike a tree. Even a simplistic view of this does not seem like the best metaphor,or even a good one at all, such as the many other things that I have read and loved. Am I justified in disagreeing with this ?
     
  7. prospect

    prospect New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    2,796
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    0
    LOL ... That passage doesn't apply to any person if indeed I am correct and Jesus is not. I am not so arrogent to think this is the case which is why I am calling it a disagreement ... (for now)
     
  8. rwild1967

    rwild1967 Banned at Members Request Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2014
    Messages:
    2,343
    Likes Received:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    0
    You Will Know Them by Their Fruits


    Must.....Resist........obvious........joke...............
     
  9. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2014
    Messages:
    20,296
    Likes Received:
    7,744
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Read those words, and then read the words that Christ said, "be ye perfect, even as the father is perfect".. Christ also told several people to go and sin no more.

    Pretty clear to me, what He was talking about. Don't sin. Your actions and thoughts should not be sinful, immoral. But how is one to live a life like that? That is easy to answer. The existence of the ego, and the fact that it rules most of us, is the creator of all sin in this world. If you do not have an ego driving your truck, your consciousness, your body, you will not sin. Sin only rises in relationship to the existence of the ego. What is the ego?

    Of course Christians have enormous egos, and they even want to save them, to give them eternal life. Sheer nonsense. So we can never expect Christians to only produce good fruit, for they love their egos, and could not bear dying to it.

    In order to keep their egos, and in order to live lives that are deeply involved with the ego pursuing gratification, Christians invented the idea of Christ dying, shedding blood, so when they sin, they can be forgiven of that sin, and can keep on sinning. And they get to keep what they love the most, their egos. LOL. And so while they may appear to be good fruit, they are ravening wolves. And their salvation is only an intellectual construct, not genuine in any sense.
     
  10. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2013
    Messages:
    41,184
    Likes Received:
    16,180
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Jesus is referring to religions, not individuals, like the Pharisees and Sadducees, this is why he uses the metaphor of a tree. Jesus usually (not always) referred directly to people when he meant to, but used metaphors when he didn't. Jesus emphasizes several times that all people are sinners, a mixture of good and bad.
     
  11. rayznack

    rayznack Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Messages:
    3,033
    Likes Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I'm curious why you can't imagine someone reading the verse can't understand establishing boundaries doesn't mean there's nothing populating the area in-between?
     
  12. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2010
    Messages:
    15,297
    Likes Received:
    3,378
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What this is saying...is that you will know the true God by its fruits. Its not focusing on people---but on false prophets/belief systems and the values they instill in society..
     
  13. prospect

    prospect New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    2,796
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    0
    No. False prophets are people with or without belief systems, and he was indeed talking about knowing people by the fruit they produce.

    Even if you limited that to false prophets/belief systems, people change on a dime, in fact, most Christians were "bad trees" before they became "born again." The metaphor just doesn't work comparing trees to people, which is the point. A false prophet can indeed bear up good and bad fruit, unlike a tree. A false prophet might bear up good fruit by doing many good things for people, even if they are hurting many others.
     
  14. prospect

    prospect New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    2,796
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Because there really is nothing in between, unless you are talking about exceptions. i.e Most good people bear up good fruits and most bad people bear up bad fruits - but there are exceptions. However, there are no exceptions with trees,which is why I think it is a bad metaphor.

    Am I being to technical here ?
     
  15. prospect

    prospect New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    2,796
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I can't agree with this, that he was referring to religions and not individuals. When you read this "Them" is individuals. Read - "You Will Know Them by Their Fruits “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.You will know them by their fruits.

    "They" are not religions.
     
  16. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    54,812
    Likes Received:
    18,482
    Trophy Points:
    113
    which is ironic, given the values Christianity has instilled in society (making the focus of their ire the most trivial inconsequentials while ignoring the big stuff).
     
  17. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    54,812
    Likes Received:
    18,482
    Trophy Points:
    113
    a 'false prophet', might also be entirely good, thoughout an entire lifetime. and a 'not false prophet' may be entirely bad. most will be both, of course, but the fact remains that whatever demonization this passage attempts, fails laughably.
     
  18. prospect

    prospect New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    2,796
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    0
    So you kind of agree with my criticism ?
     
  19. rayznack

    rayznack Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Messages:
    3,033
    Likes Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Just as there are mediocre fruits, why can't you imagine Jesus setting boundaries of 'good' and 'bad' mean he was saying there's a continuum between 'good' and 'bad'?

    In fact, it makes the analogy to fruit all the more apt.
     
  20. upside-down cake

    upside-down cake Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2012
    Messages:
    5,457
    Likes Received:
    123
    Trophy Points:
    63
    It's a bad metaphor for people...and it's a bad metaphor for trees. "Good trees" also produce bad fruit, sometimes. The concept of "cherrypicking" comes from the fact that one picks and choses which fruit he will harvest from the tree.

    Of course...good fruit and badd fruit are determined by the picker...
     
  21. prospect

    prospect New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    2,796
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Because there are no mediocre fruits in his analogy. Good tree = good fruits, Bad tree = bad fruits.

    How can you judge a man that has done nothing apparently bad his whole life but only good in his parish but then you find out he got arrested and locked up for doing something wrong with underage girls ?

    What is a mediocre fruit anyway ? Even biting into a bad apple doesn't mean the tree produced a bad apple, chances are something happened to that apple along the way.
     
  22. prospect

    prospect New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    2,796
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Some Christians may think that way, that they can keep sinning but not one that actually gets the words of Christ and repentance. You cannot keep doing the same bad things and be forgiven unless you stop, forgiveness make no sense without repentance. It is no different than if I did you wrong and explained myself and tried to make up for my wrong doing and hopefully you would understand and forgive me. But you would not be able to forgive me if I kept doing the same thing. This is pre-school Christianity.

    About the EGO, yes that is a big problem for sure but there are also sins of the flesh that people do that have nothing to do with ego, as far as I know anyway.
     
  23. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2012
    Messages:
    29,682
    Likes Received:
    3,995
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Trees are used as metaphors for all sorts of things in the Bible, including nations and rulers. You have to look at the context.
     
  24. J0NAH

    J0NAH Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2011
    Messages:
    8,047
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    0
    yes, would say its about nations which are like extended families. example would be america is a bad tree therefore nothing good will come from it, which is fairly accurate imo.
     

Share This Page