Should Israel be dismantled?

Discussion in 'Middle East' started by Ronstar, Jan 1, 2015.

?

Dismantle Israel?

  1. Yes, turn them into a secular state.

    5 vote(s)
    55.6%
  2. Let them destroy themselves.

    2 vote(s)
    22.2%
  3. Let them Arab states free Palestine.

    2 vote(s)
    22.2%
  1. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    You said:
    Then you will ask "How do you know that I'm meaning to Israel and Arabs, right?

    Your prvious comment was:
    Thus, you refered the "ethnic cleansing" to Israel like she's doing it against the Arabs. Thus it doesnt true. And not because I say so- the numbers say so!
     
  2. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ethnic cleansing is a war crime, and Israel committed ethnic cleansing in 1948, 1949, and 1967.
     
  3. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    Once again:
    The numbers dont add up with your claim!
     
  4. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    by your logic, the Holocaust never happened since there are many more Jews in Germany today than in 1946.
     
  5. Oxymoron

    Oxymoron Well-Known Member

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    What about the Arab ethnic cleansing of Jews in the early 20th century, during the multiple so called Arab Riots? Are those not crimes?
     
  6. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    if Israel can prove they were actions carried out by official policy, Israel should bring charges to the ICC.
     
  7. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    The Holocaust happened in 1930's until the mid-40's, and if we compare the number of the Jews from 1933- when Hitler started to rule Germany and the number from 1945, then we see a drastic reducing in the number of the Jews. Which means that your claim (if we will look on numbers only) doenst add up with the numbers.
    A reducing that you cant see in the number of Arabs from 1947 until nowadays.
     
  8. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    so if a population has recovered its numbers, that means a crime of genocide or ethnic cleansing never took place?

    lol!!!!!
     
  9. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    Here's a research about the figure of the Arabs in The Land of Israel (without the West Bank and Gaza, like the figure I gave you from 1947):
    ??? ??.png

    As you can see, the figures of the Arabs in Israel from 1948 untill 2001 didnt reduced, only increased.

    Source: http://www.cbs.gov.il/statistical/arabju.pdf
     
  10. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    by that logic, the Holocaust never happened since the Jewish population of Germany is much greater now than in 1946.
     
  11. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    As I already wrote:
     
  12. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    in 1948, there were were around 700,000 Arabs in Israel.

    in 1949, that number was around 200,000 due to ethnic cleansing by Israel.
     
  13. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    Abu Mazen wrote in 1976 an article in the PLO official journal, "Falastin al-Thawra":
    Emile Ghoury, secretary of the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee, in an interview with the Beirut Telegraph (it apeared also in the London Telegraph, 1948) in September 1948:
    In Time Magazine, May 1948 page 25:
    General John Glubb "Pasha," The London Daily Mail, August 1948:
    Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, New York Herald Tribune, June 1949:
    The Jordanian daily newspaper Falastin, February 1949:
    The Cairo daily Akhbar el Yom, October 1963:
    A refugee quoted in Al Difaa (Jordan) September 1954:
    And so on.

    Source: https://www.swuconnect.com/insys/npoflow.v.2/_assets/pdfs/flyers/biglies06.pdf
     
  14. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Naqba-denial is just as bad as Holocaust-denial.
     
  15. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    This is what the Arabs said (especially Abu Mazen), not me!
    I didnt deny anything! Stop accusing me for vain
     
  16. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    you deny that Israel kicked out hundreds of thousands of Arabs in 1948, 1949, and 1967.
     
  17. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    No. I showed you that when the Arabs left, it was because the Arab armies, according to Abu Mazen and other Arabic newspepers, refugee etc.
     
  18. Marlowe

    Marlowe New Member

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    Your source Stand with Us - is a pro-Israel advocacy organization . Unreliable IMO . working closely with the Israeli governments propaganda offices.

    I's suggest you read : The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine "

    Or watch list and learn here :

    [video=youtube;buhpHTGAlTE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buhpHTGAlTE[/video]

    Please read + remove your blinkers

    Ethnic cleansing of the Arab population of Palestine

    “Joseph Weitz was the director of the Jewish National Land Fund...On December 19, 1940, he wrote: ‘It must be clear that there is no room for both peoples in this country...The Zionist enterprise so far...has been fine and good in its own time, and could do with ‘land buying’ — but this will not bring about the State of Israel; that must come all at once, in the manner of a Salvation (this is the secret of the Messianic idea); and there is no way besides transferring the Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, to transfer them all; except maybe for Bethlehem, Nazareth and Old Jerusalem, we must not leave a single village, not a single tribe’...There were literally hundreds of such statements made by Zionists.” Edward Said, “The Question of Palestine.”

    Ethnic cleansing — continued

    “Following the outbreak of 1936, no mainstream (Zionist) leader was able to conceive of future coexistence without a clear physical separation between the two peoples — achievable only by transfer and expulsion. Publicly they all continued to speak of coexistence and to attribute the violence to a small minority of zealots and agitators. But this was merely a public pose..Ben Gurion summed up: ‘With compulsory transfer we (would) have a vast area (for settlement)...I support compulsory transfer. I don’t see anything immoral in it,’” Israel historian, Benny Morris, “Righteous Victims.”

    Ethnic cleansing — continued

    “Ben-Gurion clearly wanted as few Arabs as possible to remain in the Jewish state. He hoped to see them flee. He said as much to his colleagues and aides in meetings in August, September and October [1948]. But no [general] expulsion policy was ever enunciated and Ben-Gurion always refrained from issuing clear or written expulsion orders; he preferred that his generals ‘understand’ what he wanted done. He wished to avoid going down in history as the ‘great expeller’ and he did not want the Israeli government to be implicated in a morally questionable policy...But while there was no ‘expulsion policy’, the July and October [1948] offensives were characterized by far more expulsions and, indeed, brutality towards Arab civilians than the first half of the war.” Benny Morris, “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949”

    Didn’t the Palestinians leave their homes voluntarily during the 1948 war?

    “Israeli propaganda has largely relinquished the claim that the Palestinian exodus of 1948 was ‘self-inspired’. Official circles implicitly concede that the Arab population fled as a result of Israeli action — whether directly, as in the case of Lydda and Ramleh, or indirectly, due to the panic that and similar actions (the Deir Yassin massacre) inspired in Arab population centers throughout Palestine. However, even though the historical record has been grudgingly set straight, the Israeli establishment still refused to accept moral or political responsibility for the refugee problem it — or its predecessors — actively created.” Peretz Kidron, quoted in “Blaming the Victims,” ed. Said and Hitchens.

    Arab orders to evacuate non-existent

    “The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British Museum. There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948.

    There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put.” Erskine Childers, British researcher, quoted in Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”

    Ethnic cleansing — continued

    “That Ben-Gurion’s ultimate aim was to evacuate as much of the Arab population as possible from the Jewish state can hardly be doubted, if only from the variety of means he employed to achieve his purpose...most decisively, the destruction of whole villages and the eviction of their inhabitants...even [if] they had not participated in the war and had stayed in Israel hoping to live in peace and equality, as promised in the Declaration of Independence.” Israeli author, Simha Flapan, “The Birth of Israel.”

    The deliberate destruction of Arab villages to prevent return of Palestinians

    “During May [1948] ideas about how to consolidate and give permanence to the Palestinian exile began to crystallize, and the destruction of villages was immediately perceived as a primary means of achieving this aim...[Even earlier,] On 10 April, Haganah units took Abu Shusha... The village was destroyed that night... Khulda was leveled by Jewish bulldozers on 20 April... Abu Zureiq was completely demolished... Al Mansi and An Naghnaghiya, to the southeast, were also leveled. . .By mid-1949, the majority of [the 350 depopulated Arab villages] were either completely or partly in ruins and uninhabitable.” Benny Morris, “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949.

    After the fighting was over, why didn’t the Palestinians return to their homes?

    “The first UN General Assembly resolution—Number 194— affirming the right of Palestinians to return to their homes and property, was passed on December 11, 1948. It has been repassed no less than twenty-eight times since that first date. Whereas the moral and political right of a person to return to his place of uninterrupted residence is acknowledged everywhere, Israel has negated the possibility of return... [and] systematically and juridically made it impossible, on any grounds whatever, for the Arab Palestinian to return, be compensated for his property, or live in Israel as a citizen equal before the law with a Jewish Israeli.” Edward Said, “The Question of Palestine.”

    Is there any justification for this expropriation of land?

    “The fact that the Arabs fled in terror, because of real fear of a repetition of the 1948 Zionist massacres, is no reason for denying them their homes, fields and livelihoods. Civilians caught in an area of military activity generally panic. But they have always been able to return to their homes when the danger subsides. Military conquest does not abolish private rights to property; nor does it entitle the victor to confiscate the homes, property and personal belongings of the noncombatant civilian population. The seizure of Arab property by the Israelis was an outrage.” Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”

    --

    source Jews for Justice for Palestinians

    http://jfjfp.com/
    "
     
  19. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Israelis planned on expelling hundreds of thousands of Arabs in 1948, and they did just that.

    before 1949, there were 700,000 Arabs in Israel.

    after 1949, there were 200,000. Ethnic cleansing was committed.
     
  20. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    If you dont like my sources, then probebly you would like more live testemony:
    [video=youtube;9iR5nDFhBL0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iR5nDFhBL0[/video]

    Here is what Gatestone Institute say about it:
    Time Magazine, May 3, 1948, page 25:
    General John Glubb "Pasha," The London Daily Mail, August 12, 1948:
    Emile Ghoury, secretary of the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee, in an interview with the Beirut Telegraph September 6, 1948. (same appeared in The London Telegraph, August 1948):
    Source: http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/comments/22379

    Source: http://wordfromjerusalem.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/the-case-for-israel-chapter3.pdf

    A book by Barry Shaw he qouted Near East Arabic broadcasting station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949:
    Haifa district HQ of the British Police, April 26, 1949:
    The Beirut Muslim Weekly "Kul-Shay", August 19, 1949:
    Khaled Al Azam, former Syrian prime minister, wrote in his book:
    Source: https://books.google.co.il/books?id... Beirut Telegraph Sept ember 6, 1948&f=false
     
  21. Phoebe Bump

    Phoebe Bump New Member

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    The real point is, the Israeli right wing has long-term plans that do not include peace. Not now, not for a long, long time.
     
  22. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_Committee

    "The Transfer Committee was set up, unofficially, by non-Cabinet members of the first government of Israel in May 1948, with the aim of overseeing the expulsion of Palestinian Arabs from their towns and villages, and preventing their return"
     
  23. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet#The_plan_details

    Destruction of villages (setting fire to, blowing up, and planting mines in the debris), especially those population centers which are difficult to control continuously. Mounting search and control operations according to the following guidelines: encirclement of the village and conducting a search inside it. In the event of resistance, the armed force must be destroyed and the population must be expelled outside the borders of the state.
     
  24. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    Plan Dalet was part of the independace war and was formed after Arabs shot on Jewish bus in Petach Tikva on September, 30th, 1947- the action that started the Independence wer. Therefore, it was a difensive plan to deal with
    Plan Dalet was a plan that the Hagannah have been formed and it was partly operated which, for example, Deir Yassin was a village that Arabs attacked the Jewish armed forces from, so they entered the village and started to combat with the Arab forces, which led the Arab residents there to flee because of the combat.

    The section you mentioned was from paragraph 4 of the "Assignment of Duties" that was to stop the use of villages as bases controled by armed forces.
     
  25. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    bull(*)(*)(*)(*).

    it was a plan to rid the Jewish state of unwanted non-Jews. And it was reletively successful.
     

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