Basing laws on religious doctrine is insane !

In a secular democracy, to argue there is any validity in basing laws in the US, in the year 2015, on the words of ancient Middle Eastern Jews and Christians (or any other religious figures or scripts) is insanity.

In what way is it reasonable to argue the Bible can be trusted as a source of morality, law, and guidance given it was written by a select group of ethnic men, for their time, and in their region, and influenced by their already preconceived notions of the world ?

 

The phrase thou shalt not murder comes easily to mind. Virtually every law we've got on the books today comes from some where in the Ancient Near East.

 

You're telling me the Jews didn't know murder and theft was wrong before being told by Moses ? Too quote Hitchens - "They would have never gotten that far if they had."

And if murder is wrong only because God says so, doesn't that make that command arbitrary ? So if God had said "Thou SHALL murder and steal," would that make it moral and lawful ?

 

Yeah. Thou shalt not murder, lie or steal are silly notions. Ain't they?

 

You're telling me the Jews didn't know murder and theft was wrong before being told by Moses ? Too quote Hitchens - "They would have never gotten that far if they had."

And if murder is wrong only because God says so, doesn't that make that command arbitrary ? So if God had said "Thou SHALL murder and steal," would that make it moral and lawful ?

 

Religion is a form of philosophy no different the what Locke or Hobbes, or Jeffersons. Just because you believe in Humanism, does not make you superior, simply different. One is not better then another in a way that can be quantified.Politics and governance is not a science, it is an art.

 

So you are telling me you want to avoid the subject? I responded to the assertion that Biblical doctrine should not be used for our laws. And I destroyed the argument. Hitchens speaking to the Bible is like ISIS speaking to human rights.

 

And I'm proving to you the Bible does not need to be used as a source of law and morality because humans innately know that murder, theft, etc ... is immoral and wrong. Those who believe otherwise are basically sociopaths. And they tend to immediately draw the ire and rage of society at large. Name me one society which said, "Hey, theft should be made legal."

 

Why couldn't you answer the question bolded above?

 

It doesn't matter what you think. I responded to the poster's claim with Commandments that addressed his point!

 

And the irony of you using ISIS is fantastic. ISIS believes what they do is moral and lawful because God said so. They prove the danger of law coming from religion !

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Because he/she knows it would destroy the foundation of their argument.

 

I responded to the poster. Now you and he may not like my response but that's life. The fact is God didn't say what the poster asked. Nice try on the diversion though.

 

May be a little off topic but if people need a god to tell them not to kill then I would rather they stick with that god. Who knows what kind of crazy (*)(*)(*)(*) they would do otherwise.

 

The silliness of you using a God hater in a Biblical discussion is priceless. And Allah is not the God of the Bible. Ask Hitchens.

 

you are again not answering my basic question ;

IS THEFT WRONG ONLY BECAUSE GOD SAYS SO OR IS IT WRONG REGARDLESS OF WHAT GOD SAYS ?

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I agree, but it does mean that religious person is void of true morality and are simply basing their morality on divine command.

 

How is it not arbitrary if only man says it? All laws are an exercise in political force. And that force can and has been completely arbitrary and on several occasions, apparently, utterly mad. Oh and the Thuggees certainly thought it did.

 

But Allah IS the god of the bible. Islam is an offshoot of christianity.

 

The Bible is also a collection of social, civil and penal rules [laws, if we prefer], in fact the first books of the Tanakh was also known as "The Law" [wonder why ...].

In ancient times it wasn't rare that laws were actually written in religious texts, so that they got also the status of religious precepts. It was quite common.

This doesn't make them universal from a modern lay perspective, but this doesn't make them automatically wrong [from the same perspective!].

Or are you going to sustain that even a biblical law is acceptable, it's absolutely wrong and to reject simply because it's in the Bible?

 

So then you don't believe in concepts like timeless wisdom? Things that hold true from era to era because they are a universal part of the human experience that transcends arbitrary and fleeting details like culture and social norms?

Some people insist on reinventing the wheel because they simply refuse to accept that round is a good enough shape. No matter what history has shown them.

 

At a minimum, if it was based on man via secular democracy, it would be based on majority rule. And those laws would at least have the ability to be changed if they needed to be. But with divine command, laws are permanent and must be obeyed.

And ultimately, it's not arbitrary if it's based on innate logic and morality.

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give an example of this "timeless wisdom" that wasn't already innate in man back then and now, and that wasn't a part of every advanced and flourishing culture before and after the Bible.

 

Maybe but again, if an invisible guy is telling you NOT to cause me physical harm, then please by all means listen to the voice in your head.

 

Humans innately know no such thing.

Look at the slavery, the torture, the cannibalism, the human sacrifice, practiced on this very continent, and the one south of here, before the immoral Europeans came over here with their silly and unnecessary Bible.

 

No you are arguing that it should not be used, not that it need not be used. Nothing needs to be used for law. We could just do away with all laws.

 

You missed the meaning of the question.......the poster NEVER said god said that......try reading it again verrrrrry slowly......

 

the vast, vast, majority of those crimes were based on religious command from local chieftains !
and if you think the Bible hasn't been used to justify genocide and violence, you're in denial.