No Deal For Greece - Talks Break Down

EU - No Deal For Greece. Athens Given One Week Ultimatum

If Greece accepted what was offered, seventy eight percent would have gone right back to Germany. Varoufakis the economic minister never expected such intransigence. He said they made a deal with Tsipras, but then tried to trick him by changing a certain part.

"We were offering to refrain effectively from implementing our own program for a period of six months and all we were getting back was a nebulous promise of some flexibility that was never specified," Varoufakis said.

Varoufakis said that he was ready to agree to a deal with creditors giving Athens up to six months credit in return for putting major new budget policies on hold.

But this had been swapped for a different proposal from Jeroen Dijsselbloem, the Eurogroup president, which he couldn’t sign because it obliged Athens to extend its current bailout package. As a result the talks, which had been expected to last well into the night, broke down after just four hours.



I worry for Greece, because they are now going to seek money from the US. No doubt Washington will have certain demands that will not be economically beneficial for Greece. They have done it before. If Greece doesn't accept it, they will then get the ten billion Russia had offered them, as well as a loan from the BRIC bank...which again had been offered them. And these will come with certain demands which Greece might not be able to fulfill.

I see certain outcomes. One is that they will leave the Eurozone and maybe even the EU. Another is they will leave Nato, which will make them vulnerable to Turkey's aggression and even more dependent on Russia for protection.

One thing is certain, they will not change their political stance towards Russia, the Greek people will not allow it. Of course no one knows what Obama might do, after all the Greeks in the US are a powerful force politically, and especially economically. Even the idiot Psaki is half Greek...so we will have to wait and see.

http://rt.com/business/232887-greece-eu-talks-break/

 

Greece needs to realize their left wing ideology just won't work perfectly in the 21st century because of the actions of their previous leaders.

 

The EU is done feeding them. Good for the EU. Russia can feed Greece if they like.....better yet, Greece should stop whining, bleating, complaining, blackmailing and partying, and should instead roll up their sleeves and start working real hard...producing goods and services, pay off their debt to Germany and building their economy....


What a great idea, why did not the Greeks think of that?

 

Well, the economic model of austerity they were effectively tied to wasn't working which is why the Greeks voted for an alternative. Democratic outcomes are a bummer when they don't coincide with ones ideologically based dogma aren't they?

Of course their situation wasn't helped by the fact that Greece was a recipient of bad lending. Due to corrupt networks of elite collusion embracing both government and private sector, much of this money was simply siphoned out of the country into overseas accounts in London and Cyprus.

However, the large deficit is not the fault of those Greeks who work as civil servants in the public sector who pay their taxes in full at source. Syriza’s victory was an indication that people are not content just to accept the narrative given them by the mainstream media and the parties in the pocket of corporations.

I think that under the circumstances they were being realistic with both themselves and their people on the amount of blood, sweat and tears that is going to need to go in to building a productive Greek economy. An example of Keynesian stimulus is much needed by the rest of Europe.

 

Gibbons in his volumes on the Roman Empire always referred to Greeks as industrious, (it's a very vibrant culture, as anyone who knows Greeks can attest to), and volatile. Well whatever gain their industriousness gives them, their self destructive volatility takes away. No one should expect much from them

Anyway it has nothing to do with their left wing ideology. Their main source of income is shipping, and their million and one ship owners are international corporations, and if they are taxed at a high rate they will put their ships under a Panamanian flag and Greece will get nothing.. and if they leave, then half the people in Athens will be out of work.

So the only people the government can tax are the wealthy Greeks who are not ship owners, and they have their money in Switzerland, and Switzerland will not hand over their names. Tsipras wants to eliminate taxes on the poorer homeowners so they won't lose their homes, and raise taxes on the mansions...and believe me there are plenty of mansions.

Anyway there are a lot of problems, such as sabotage of crops by their neighboring country during the dry season when the trade winds are blowing, and the extra police and coast guards because of the Turkish human traffickers. Right now one out of every four or six persons in Athens is an illegal, dependent on the Church and State for sustenance.

 

Greece needs to stop its leftist and socialist policies, and then it would fare way better. I worry for France, Germany, and northern Europe in the EU who have to continue to provide for countries like Greece and Spain who refuse to change their leftist policies. Russia's economy is tanking, so taking money from them would be an extremely bad idea for Greece and it would definitely invite Russian influence and possibly Russian forces into Greece. Now if Greece is looking for a handout from another lefty then Obama is their man! I'm sure Obama would gladly handout money to Greece since he hands out money all the time to nations that hate us in Africa and the Middle East and to Americans who refuse to even look for work.

A good bail out plan was the Marshall Plan after WWII. The Marshall Plan did have certain rules that had to be met in order to receive money but they were smart and beneficial rules to help promote economic growth, and above all the Marshall Plan was a success. I believe the world could learn a great lesson if everyone researched the Marshall Plan.

 

From what I have read, their pension programs are absolutely insane. Also I have seen the percentage of government workers vs private sector and it is way off of healthy.

There are many more points involving basically a government that is too large to be supported by its citizenry.

Is this incorrect?

 

Greece suffered from record suicides directly attributable to a crisis that by and large had nothing to do with the people who are affected by it. The neoliberal economic model predicated on austerity as the mode for growth, has failed which is why the Greek people elected into power a government who are opposed to the said failed model. This is democracy in action. Now, in order to repay their debts, the new government first needs the growth that the existing supply-led model didn't achieve. So the alternative they are looking to is a demand-led model as the precursor to stimulating demand. This means that they require an additional cash boost into the economy as opposed to a direct cash boost to the pockets of bankers by way of inflated bonuses which is essentially what QE means. When people have access to cash they spend and when banks lend money by way of loans to finance new small business start ups, demand for goods and services increase thereby stimulating growth. Higher growth means more jobs which in turn means more tax revenues. More tax revenues creates the conditions by which the government can begin to repay its debts and reduce its deficit.

 

What precisely have you read and where did you read it?

 

You're right, and too many of the young people left their farms and went to the city for work. Now they have no jobs and are back in their parents homes. Many though are doing what Russia is doing and starting to develop their own agriculture so it can compete with the more developed countries.

As for industries, they didn't want them so as not to destroy their land and sea, but you can't have everything. Their top scientists, engineers, etc., have been leaving for decades and working for American firms. Greece should have had its own industries, that way they wouldn't have had to leave. Now they're losing their top doctors as well, because of the high taxes.

 

When you say high taxes, are you talking about the overall tax burden by way of stealth taxes or are you talking about direct tax rates? What the new Greek government needs to do is to stop the tax dodging loopholes by which the rich in Greece have avoided paying tax. That's been the major cause of the crisis in Greece. The poor who by and large have public sector jobs pay their taxes in full and at source and hence cannot evade their taxes. It's the culture of corruption that needs to end. It's not fair that the poor who by and large pay their taxes are punished for the actions of the rich who don't. Allied to this, the Greek government needs to stick to its demand-led economic strategy of the kind I outlined.

 

They know that austerity is a failure, and yet the IMF refuses to change the system. What's wrong with them? Someone wrote that in the future they will have to make a study of Merkel to find out what was wrong with her.

Here is a video by a German opposition leader who is a fantastic speaker. She tells Merkel off on everything, and how Germany destroyed Europe twice before and that it is doing it again. I'm sure this is why Merkel went with Hollande and paid Putin a visit.

[video=youtube;lIi4a7ri-dc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIi4a7ri-dc[/video]

 

Lowering Trade Barriers for Germany has amounted to making most of Europe
its' economic colony. Wealth flows to Germany in an imperial manner but in a 21st Century form.
It's legions are Deutschebank! I usually write it as GermanBank

I support Greece's move from a colony to independence.
Hungary is apparently doing some "cool" stuff too, although they hate the Russians so.


Moi
Smart Nations would be
Non Aligned Nations


r > g

View attachment 33596
Ottawa, the GermanBank
on the Provinces. ​

 

Yes I've heard that speech. It's great. The Greek people are some of the most intelligent people I have ever met and they have their finger on the pulse. I'm hoping that the new finance minister who is one of the brightest cookies around can cut a deal and thereby potentially change what Dr Johnson described as the dictatorship of the prevailing orthodoxy. But I'm not holding my breath. What Merkel, Cameron and the rest of the bankster class are afraid of is the notion that what potentially happens in Greece might be deemed as threat of a good example elsewhere and that this might spread throughout the rest of Europe, particularly the remainder of the PIGS nations in the south. In addition, they are wary of the fact that if Greece fails to strike a deal, they might turn their attentions to a potential alliance with Russia and perhaps Hungary and further afield. Attending to this crisis is therefore as much about newly perceived ideological alignments as much anything else. I'm hoping that Greece can lead the way for the kind of Keynesian boosterism that is much needed throughout Europe as a whole.

 

I agree with you.

 

I always say, wisdom doesn't need a lot of words.
Wordfullness are for those who would confound meaning to lie. ie. lawyers, judges and politicians.

The Declaration of Independence. Not so wordful for the message, considering.
Likewise, "Yes Virginia There Is A Santa Claus" or The Travis Letter from the Alamo.
All wonderfully succinct and potent.
----------------------------------------------------------
Revolution, Economic not Social, nor Military (yet)
The Mexican Revolution was the first social revolution.
Greece and Hungary, by different roads - I do hope they discover their "national independence".
And neither road ends up like the French Revolution.
No doubt America and the E.U. has the power to place economic collapse on them as they did on Egypt, twice to bring about a government change. Iran, a little too big to suffer the same over it. Russia - like Iran but, more so.
What a shame that my America creates economic hardship on working foreign peoples for the purpose of encouraging a change of their government. Really.

As a California Nationalist, I really do believe in 20 if not 10 years, California and IMF nations, - those remaining, will be in a relative depression against the BRICS nations. When BRICS really, really start monetizing their wealth -
I'm glad I'm 66. Too bad youngin's


Moi


r > g

No ​

 

Let Greece wallow in their own filth. Their laziness and greed got them here so let them live the rest of their miserably lives under the system they created.

 

Things are not as simple as they seem. Greece covers a large part of the Eastern Mediterranean, this is why they suffered so in WWII. Britain could not let it be captured and occupied, since it controls their lifeline to Iraqi oil and India, so it is one of the most strategic areas of the world. In addition, the treaty between Greece, Cyprus and Egypt unites and encompasses all the oil and gas rich waters in the Eastern part of the Mediterranean.

China has a great deal of commercial interests in Greece. It wants to use its main port to send goods into Europe, while Russia eyes Greece for purely defensive reasons. It needs the islands for stopovers and refueling for its Mediterranean fleet, and for repairs as well as other things.

Someone said that a vote will be taken in a few days to see if the people will accept austerity, or not. I read that Russia told the BRICs to prepare a loan package for Greece at a much lower interest rate than that of the IMF. If the Greeks vote no to the austerity, then it means they will have to leave the Eurozone. Will they leave the EU as well, and will the EU survive? If Greece fairs well, then wouldn't it be an incentive for other nations to leave the Eurozone? Wouldn't this be a threat to the EU and the US, and therefore wouldn't they do everything to keep the Greeks suffering and in poverty?

Also can there be political motives involved as well, since Greece will always block anti Russian sanctions? Would Greece be ostracized and forced out of the EU, and will they end up leaving Nato, and will they install Russian bases then...especially as protection from Turkey? If that happens, then it will be an incentive for Cyprus to do the same, and that could change the whole geo political dynamics in that part of the world. I see some very dangerous years ahead of all of us.

 

That has little or nothing to do with anything , for example no mayor oil pipeline passes through greece. It is part of the problem: Greece just doesnt have anyting intresting hence its down economy .
The only reason china is there is because its cheap to buy up now.

Nobody does anything to "keep the Greeks suffering and in poverty" thats absolute BS. ANd if brics want to give cheap loans to greece to pay of the debt to others, by all means let them do it. Time these "new" economies step up and take some of the burden. Of course, there demands arent going to be any less then those greece already has. Or do you actually think those countries will help out of the goodnes of their hearts?

For the EU, eurozone and certainly the US this has little to no impact. Greece just isnt important .

Greece already voted twice against russia and for extra sanctions in the last week.

 

Back to my original question....did the Greeks expect to get more money to continue business as usual with no intention of ever paying it back? if so, why?

 

Democratic outcomes do not trump economic reality...One cannot vote oneself other nations money.

 

How does giving out more handouts while increasing their debt lead to a demand driven economy? The only demand I see is for other folks money

 

The 'poor' are not public sector folk as that group makes on average 150% of what the average private sector fellow makes...That makes the public sector the upper middle class.

 

European banks are more leveraged than ours. When the Greek debt goes down, the banks will crash, the markets will crash, and Europeans who put their money into dollars (which is one big reason the dollar is so high) will need their money. This will cause our markets to roll over and crash.

Greatest depression since the Hundred Years War is coming...

 

Greece is a very corrupt country, I don't see why the EU wants to help them.