Germany Loses Patience with NATO over Ukraine Lies

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Sly Lampost, Mar 16, 2015.

  1. Sly Lampost

    Sly Lampost New Member

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    Source
     
  2. Fear-And-Loathing

    Fear-And-Loathing New Member

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    This article while interesting (in terms of discourse) omits some key details and thus loses its vigour in explaining what exactly is happening in Cold War v.2

    Namely:

    1) This whole things is traced back to a single agreement. The EU and Ukraine were beginning accession talks for joining the common market and this countered Putin's dream of a Eurasian Union. So he arm-wrangled Yanukovych into backing down and flip-flopping to Russia's Neo-Soviet economic union (which almost certainly as the EU is moving towards consolidation, it is as well). No one started talking about NATO or Ukraine joining NATO until after the revolution and annexation of Crimea.

    2) The German's, if anything are using this situation as impetus to accelerate political union of the EU which by default includes military union (see: Juncker's comments on EU army recently).

    3) The Information War he talks about is being carried out on the Russian side just as much, if not more as he claims it is on this side. Western media is reflecting the mood of the populace and that mood is ancestral mistrust and animosity towards Russia. If we are running an Information War, then we are clearly losing as no one on the street wants war with Russia.

    4) If you really want to know how the shots are being called, look into this cat Alexander Dugin and his book (the widely read and discussed in Russian political/military elite circles) Foundations of Geopolitics for a better understanding.

    5) Obama is terrible at foreign policy and effectuating himself on the world stage. American power is rapidly dwindling in key geopolitical areas and we're countering it haphazardly and are watching conventional empires reformulate across Eurasia. If anything, Germany is concerned about our ability to preserve the security of Europe.
     
  3. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    :roll: Why should this alternative to the EU be so labeled? I find this to be antagonistic and unnecessary.

    Also, what evidence is there for Russia "arm-wrangling" Yanukovych? For that matter, even if it did happen, so what? It's not like the US doesn't "arm-wrangle" other nations constantly. It's doing a hell of a job on Russia right now, isn't it?

    The EU is evolving rapidly into the United States of Europe, no doubts there. It's absolutely bound to go the same way our formerly free nation went, as it has started out the same way and is subject to the same pressures. Soon each member state will have no real power over the whole. Perhaps that is already so. Further, they will lose any power and hope of ever being able to leave the EU.

    No, western media is determining the mood of the populace. It came out of the gate blaming and vilifying Russia, and public opinion has been shifting to match this ever since. The tail wags the dog in the west the same as in the east.

    That never should have been our place. Perhaps we were needed there for a time in the wake of the world wars and with the Soviet beast looming to the east, but it's gone too far for too long, and now we threaten their security more than maintain it by poking and prodding Russia as we're doing.
     
  4. CircleBird

    CircleBird Banned

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    "Protestors" will begin to show up and take land in the Baltics in the next few months.

    Putin has picked the lock.

    Article 5 is meaningless.

    NATO has been neutered.

    The US European alliance has 10 years left tops.

    Europe will fall to pieces in 20 years.

    Global power is shifting South and East.
     
  5. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

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    Sly Lampost, I know you're new here, but you've got to add a comment when you open a discussion topic.
     
  6. Fear-And-Loathing

    Fear-And-Loathing New Member

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    Because the Eurasian Economic Union is nothing more than an embarrassing front for a renewed Soviet Union. You could argue on the flip-side that the EU is the actualization of successive first French and then German attempts to politically, economically and militarily dominate the continent. I think Putin surmises that what the EU is doing is the modern form of empire, so he must replicate it!

    For the arm-wrangling, see: $15,000,000,000 loan and cheap gas "offered" in Dec. 2013. I don't dispute we're guilty of arm-wrangling other countries but when are our alternatives offered blatant/perpetual annexation(s)?

    Which is why I wouldn't be shocked to see the UK leaving and quite frankly, I think it behooves Britain to seek allies and integration with other states.

    That's a very cynical take, and purely subjective. Name one instance of the Western media declaring "genocide" and all other sorts of heinous language. The Russian media really takes the cake on this one and to deny that there wasn't already some ancestral mistrust and animosity in Western populations over Russia beforehand is simply not true.

    I'd be inclined to agree if it were not for that man Alexander Dugin (that I mentioned in point 4 above) and his influence of the Kremlin's foreign policy. It's needed now more than ever as the Russian's are looking to expand their empire. Without the Ukraine under their thumb, Russia cannot have the political/economic/technological clout necessary to be a large Eurasian empire.
     
  7. Pronin24

    Pronin24 New Member

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    This is an example how ignorant in foreign politics president Obama used a non elected official Nuland to change the whole world by manipulating all European Democracies. The world became not a better place.
     
  8. Sly Lampost

    Sly Lampost New Member

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    . Thanks, I found that out this morning.
     
  9. Sly Lampost

    Sly Lampost New Member

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    As I've said elsewhere, what's happening in Ukraine is from the old post WWII US playbook (see HERE).

    Since Putin decided not to roll over and have his belly tickled as the US wanted, they've decided to destroy him. That and to create divisions between Russia and Germany. The fear was, and is, that Germany and Russia will enter an alliance economically that would, in short order, cast a shadow over US dollar hegemony.

    The last time they did this, a cold war lasting 40 years ensued.

    That would suit them nicely.

    George Friedman sets out the game below:

    Source
     
  10. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    We Americans have enjoyed piddling and fiddling around in the post-World War II world as though it's been our little playground. We fiddled in the Korean peninsula and managed to save half of it, and it only got 50,000 of our troops killed. We piddled in Vietnam (after Johnson made up a complete lie about the "Gulf of Tonkin" incident), ended up losing the whole thing, but it only got another 60,000 of our soldiers killed. In subsequent piddling and fiddling, we've enjoyed thrilling little excursions in places like the old Yugoslavia, Iraq, and Afghanistan, and the casualties are so low that they aren't noticed or commented on by anyone.

    The Germans have long memories, and they learn (albeit slowly at times) from their own very long history. One of the more convincing and stark lessons the Germans have learned is NOT to (*)(*)(*)(*) with Russia -- especially a Russia that has the largest stockpile of nuclear weapons in the world, and, which has nukes and launchers positioned in its exclave at Kaliningrad that could put a thermonuclear hydrogen bomb on Berlin less than two minutes after being launched....

    But nobody's going to have a nuclear war over a failed economic black-hole like Ukraine, a large part of which will be blighted for thousands more years thanks to the Chernobyl disaster. The question to Germany has been more like, "Are you willing to go fight Russians in the dark murk and muck of the forests and hills of Ukraine for the European Central Bank and the IMF?" The answer from the German business community has been, "Hell, no! We want to buy endless supplies of cheap natural gas from Russia -- not fight the bastards!" :smile:

    It passes the German common-sense test to devote your time and energy into getting rich, enjoying being rich, and remaining rich! None of those things are going to happen if Germany gets to be on the front lines of even a simple, meat-grinder "conventional" war with Russia. Hint: when the German Wehrmacht stormed into Southern Russia at a place called Stalingrad, nobody gave the Russians a chance of survival. The Russian losses were staggering, and their soldiers had almost nothing to fight with. They charged against German machine gun emplacements, sometimes with no weapons at all, and were mowed down by the thousands... but they kept coming. Sometimes they would set themselves on fire and charge right into the German positions, looking to take a couple of Nazis with them before they died.

    Whether all the stories of Russian heroism were true or not, the lesson of Stalingrad was not lost on Germans. They have never forgotten it. Today's Russia is better equipped to fight either a nuclear or a conventional war than at any other time in its history! The Germans, who have no nuclear weapons, a fraction of the armed forces, and a healthy desire to keep right on being the richest nation in Europe, are well-aware of all of this.

    The biggest nightmare for all internationalist central bankers (ECB, Bank of England, Federal Reserve, etc.) is that Germany will leave NATO and make its own non-aggression pact with Russia -- somewhat like Joachim von Ribbentrop made with them before World War II, in 1939. Only THIS time, there wouldn't be a delusional idiot like Adolf Hitler to screw the whole thing up by invading Russia! Truth is, I can see such an arrangement being very beneficial to both Germany and Russia for as far into the future as anyone can see.... :eekeyes:
     
  11. Europe2050

    Europe2050 New Member

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    Not complete right - not complete wrong ...

    Germany is far enough from Russia so it has no direct danger, but near enough to be a strategical russian aim through all the times.
    Germanys (Prussias) aim through the last 300 years was to keep Russia away from Berlin. To achieve this there were two strategies:

    The first was to get as much territory in the east for oneself to have enough space against a possible attack. This was the strategy of the Prussian Friedrichs and Wilhelms and also of Hitler (who combined it later with direct attac on USSR).

    The second was to get strong, friendly countries between Russia and Germany and let them do the defense work. This strategy was built after 1917 until German breakdown in WW1 and again now with Merkel.

    In most of the times the first strategy worked (on the back of Poland etc.). Germany as you said is no more a belligrent nation, but still wants to have security. So now we have the second strategy and Germany will help the eastern-middle.Europe states to survive just on own interest.

    For this strategy it is not essential if Ukraine is with or without Crimea or Donbas, its essential, that the 90% Ukraine is able to stand russian aggression.

    This doesn't fit to
    - Putins aims (who doesn't care on occupying Donbas, but wants to get the whole Ukraine in a depended to russia, failed state status)
    - Poroshenko (who wants to get the Ukraine back in borders of 2013)
    - Obama (who wants Russia to be occupied in Ukraine)
    but it fits to german security issues. Minsk 2 was such an attempt.
     
  12. Sly Lampost

    Sly Lampost New Member

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    I'm not so sure I agree with you about the US not having blatant perpetual annexations - but it all depends on what you mean by those terms.

    One blatant annexation remains Germany where the US still houses the largest US military presence in western Europe. We could add Japan and South Korea also and many more besides. But as I said it depends on definitions. Even though definitions don't really alter the reality of a nation that has a large foreign military presence forced on it by a historical treaty.

    Call it annexation, occupation or friendliness. What's that old mafia godfather saying, keep your friends close, but keep your enemies even closer?
     
  13. Fear-And-Loathing

    Fear-And-Loathing New Member

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    That's an interesting concept you bring up and I really wouldn't classify it as traditional annexation (I'm thinking of examples more like the Rhineland in 1936, Crimea in 2014, Britain in Egypt in 1890s etc). I was reading an article that posited this bizarre new phenomenon in international politics whereby country A will allow country B to station military forces in their country. Obviously, it's all for deterrence, but this concept would've been impossible before WW2 and the way sovereignty was defined. Now however, it is an accepted method of defense and let's be honest, it doesn't mean these states don't pursue their own objectives on the international stage.

    I could agree with that statement up to the UK, Holland, South Korea, and Poland who have throughout the 20th century been staunch allies of ours. That being said, Germany and Japan were occupied for different reason. Let's not forget that this whole concept of collective defense on a global scale can be traced to the original US/UK effort during WW2 and the massive deployment of millions and millions of Americans to England and the English accepting it (something that would've been laughable ten years previously)!

    That second article you posted as well was a good read but I find it fascinating that no one mentions this character Alexander Dugin and the rampant revanchism/neo-imperialism taking over Russia right now in a nationalistic frenzy. True, we Americans are a meddling bunch and I think coupled with mainly the UK, will always be perpetually meddling in Eurasia as a single empire or bloc rising there would surely bring on irrelevance for the good ole' USA on the world stage. This was the same policy Britain had in Europe for 500+ years, just in Eurasia.
     
  14. Rotshild

    Rotshild Member

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    .....the primordial interest of the United States over which for centuries we have fought wars, the first, second and cold war has been the relationship between Germany and Russia. Because united they are the only force that could threaten us, and to make sure that that doesn't happen.

    [video=youtube;QeLu_yyz3tc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeLu_yyz3tc[/video]
     
  15. Fear-And-Loathing

    Fear-And-Loathing New Member

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    To be honest, if the Minsk v.2 agreement is scuttled during the springtime, its only a matter of time before Germany in concert with Poland and other Central European countries start rearming. I respect what Germany is trying to do since Ukraine is their part of the world but this whole disaster can be attributed to Ukraine wanting to join the EU. This is never mentioned in any diatribe people engage about over this subject. Ukraine had an uprising because Yanukovych pulled out of the EU association agreement due to Russian pressure for joining it's own mirroring economic/political bloc.

    Hopefully the peace will hold but I know for a fact that the once close and mutually beneficial relationship Merkel and Putin had is kaput. She does not trust him anymore and there is a growing chorus within the EU to challenge the Russians more effectively to counter their dreams of resurrecting the Soviet Union.
     
  16. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    Of course, those are the interests of elites and politicians, not our interests. My interests are in seeing a peaceful, progressive society around the globe, not in seeing a belligerent currency empire pick potentially earth-shattering fights with other nations.
     
  17. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    Wouldn't it be in Russia's interest to have a strong ally in Ukraine rather than a "failed" dependent state? It's good to have good allies.
     
  18. Merwen

    Merwen Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it's the best they think they can get there.

    Frankly, whoever started it, it rained on Putin's Olympic Games parade, which was rather nasty. I watched his facial expressions carefully toward the end of the Games, as he was forced to stand there, supposedly impassive, while plots regarding the Crimea were apparently swirling around. He looked somewhat stunned, which to me was as good an indicator as any as to who instigated the Crimean mess.

    In retrospect, no wonder Obama did not attend; I thought at the time it had little to do with homosexual rights. Whether it was meant or not, though, Putin has gotten the signal that the US was up to no good.

    Why oh why do we have to put up with a governing class that values profit from weapons sales and international financial manipulations rather than international friendships and peaceful cooperation? This planet could be heaven on earth if some would stop what they are doing and be more constructive.
     
  19. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    And it all came right on the heels of Russia's intervention in Syria and the Snowden incident. Makes ya wonder, eh.
     
  20. Merwen

    Merwen Well-Known Member

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    Especially since the little I have so far read about our history with Syria in here leads me to believe whatever we were doing over there probably should have been messed with.

    What was Russia's motivation in that?

    Foolish move, apparently--for the Ukraine, at least.

    A kindergartner could have seen how easily the Ukrainian-Crimean situation could be destabilized.

    I don't think it is fair to play such lessons out using innocent blood to make the point.

    I feel sorry for Snowden and the others. The fact that their actions are needed to reach the truth about what is going on shows how completely our democratic processes are being subverted.


    At the very least, if "balance of powers" is going to be the main tactic, they should bring teeter totters ( see saws) back into our playgrounds so our voters would have the mental equipment to be able to figure it out. I don't know how modern students could possibly understand many concepts in mechanics and physics without that experience, either.

    Just another example of deliberate dumbing down of the masses, I guess.
     
  21. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    Our beloved leaders and their media propagandists like to talk about "a balance between privacy and security." It's their euphemistic way of describing government violation our civil rights to protect us from the manufactured threat of radical Muslim terrorism. 9/11 was sufficiently awful for people to shut up and accept that, of course. No sane person wants to see that happen again.
     
  22. Merwen

    Merwen Well-Known Member

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    Yes, they have their ways to motivate us. It appears they use the same tactics against their own citizens that they use against foreign powers.

    Manipulation.
     
  23. dreamin'gal

    dreamin'gal New Member

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    I think...for EU or Germany right now, Greek is a bigger issue compare to Russia...

    ps. I thought NATO is controlled by Germany, isn't it?
     
  24. Europe2050

    Europe2050 New Member

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    Yes, I also think, that will happen. Poland will do the direkt work and Germany the sponsoring. Actually polish strategy covers with the German (the "Number two"). Poland also doesn't want to be the buffer state to Russia, so it supplies the Baltics and Ukraine with the same intentions like Germany. They will do everything possible to help Ukraine to survive, military as well as economical.
    That even may include Minsk 3-10, because on the long term Ukraine only can survive economical if there is some lasting truce in the east.
     
  25. Europe2050

    Europe2050 New Member

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    1. No, I disagree with you on this point. Greece is some kind of operational problem. Merkel herself is not too much involved in it, Schäuble (who ist the right man for this) nearly alone works on it. Either way the theme will end, Germany may loose some money, but it's not thread to its security. And I even don't believe it's a real problem for EU. Ukraine really matters security interests of the EU and Germany, a failure of the post-maidan Ukraine may hurt the european ideals.

    2. I often heard about EU controlled by Germany, never about NATO. So maybe this operation is so secret, noboby knows about it, even the NATO, the NSA and the german government ? :icon_jawdrop:
     

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