If the U.S. Sends Weapons to Ukraine, “the EU Will Break Up

My guess is that if Obama sends weapons [to Ukraine], then the EU will break up, and the U.S. will have, as remaining European allies, only Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, and maybe two or three other small nations. The Donbass military (as it now is), will, I think, nonetheless win against the third invasion from Ukraine; and Putin and his ally China will also have, as new allies, Japan and South Korea, and much of Europe, and maybe even including Australia and UK; and the American Century will have ended in shame, disgrace and defeat, without any nuclear war (which would be pointless, even for America’s psychopathic aristocrats). So: I am more optimistic than Paul Craig Roberts and some others are.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015...century-will-ended-shame-disgrace-defeat.html
Can the EU really break up? I hope so but it's too unlikely for Europe. Too much in Europe depends on US policy and especially on their financing. I think there too much ties between them and in some kind Europe has almost forgotten how to be entirely independent.

 

Funny these post of people that dont seem tot have a clue what they are talking about , but this stop them from making very wild speculations .

No if us send weapons EU will not split up . it will most likely support this . don't forget it largely EU that installed the sanctions .

No EU is not dependent on us it sails its own course when needed .

FYI Europe is not a country , neither is EU .

 

First of all I've told nothing about one country. of course it's a union with Germany in the head, and it's not only my opinion. What speculations are you talking about? These sanctions strikes the europeans harder than Russia. Don't think it was their idea. And who is giving EU the orders?...

 

You pretend europe is a country, its not its a collection of (*)(*)(*)(*)ries with different ideas same goes for EU. There is no joint foreign policy in europe or ther EU so every country can do as it wants.

Take the latest war in iraq, some EU countries joined others were very opposed yet not 1 issue for the EU .

As I said, you seem to miss the basics .

No idea what you are talking about here, germany is one of the EU countries yes.
One of the biggest and thus most powerfull.

It was and they strike russia several times harder then EU. Russia had its economic growth , stock , exchange and currency drasticly affected . EU basicly just had to reroute some of its exports .

EU parliament and EU commision.

 

I'll answer frankly

 

It's interesting though that the EU published a declaration by the heads of State or Government of the Union blaming the Ukrainian separatists of a bombing and threatening Russia with new sanctions was published in violation of EU procedure. The new Greek prime minister, Alexis Tsipras, complained that Greece had not been consulted about this. Also, it seems that Hungary, Austria and Slovakia tried to modify the declaration but were ignored (Source).

So things aren't exactly hunky dory in the EU either.

For a deeper understanding of these apparent tensions and disagreements we would need to go back to the 1950s and see who really drove the EU into manifestation - and that's another story.

 

Ah so besides no knowledge you also have no arguments, figured as much.


Perhaps get some knowledge an you will get some arguments and not just parrot others?

 

If you know anything about the EU this is about as much consensus they get. In the end those countries agreed to the text .

And irrelevant to the current EU . The EU is not controlled by the US, basic history shows that and the EU will not disintegrate by any stance they take on russia.

This is some made up PR BS coming from RT or other brainwashing channels .

 

The Washington sociopaths decided to pit the EU against Russia, and if a war broke out between them, well then all the better, I mean look how wealthy the US became after the last one?

If anyone thinks Merkel and company were so stupid as to destroy the EU economy, hurt thousands of German business' in Russia, throw hundreds of thousands out of work without the pressure and blackmail of the US, has to be a fool. Merkel and Holland's last stand to avoid war in Europe, something Washington strives for, was the Minsk II agreement...and which as we all know, Nuland threw her usual fit over with curses and the guttural obscenities she is known for.

..I Say F@CK The EU

 

Greece agreed to what text? Mariupol is a Greek city, and if you think the people living there don't know exactly from what direction the attack came from and who was responsible, and if you think the Greek government is going to go against their own people to please the sociopaths in Washington, you would have to be dreaming. But that's something lately that's become quite common...as we have seen with Breedlove and Nuland's illusions of Russian armies marching into Ukraine.

Take another guess? Unless Washington thinks it's going to force regime changes a la Kiev against the wills of the majority. But then again with sociopaths, one never knows?

 

Umm. Any chance of you evidencing that, or must I simply rely on your saying it is so?

History is always relevant to current affairs. However, I agree that the EU is not controlled by the US, but it remains the case it still has a great deal of clout. And to understand why this is the case, you need to understand the background to origins, incidents and other structures that arose around the same time.

I also find it amusing that, one the one hand, you eliminate history as being irrelevant to suit your argument, but on the other you use it to reinforce the point you're making. Such consistency.

I think I understand your point. And you, in fact. Anything that is at variance with your thinking must, by definition, be BS and/or brainwashing.

 

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/eu...e-misinterpreted-over-russia-sanctions-311663
"In a post on his personal blog, Varoufakis said media had distorted the position of the new leftist-led government. The complaint made by Athens to EU foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini had been about a lack of consultation, not about the sanctions themselves, he added."

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/30/world/europe/european-union-russia-sanctions-greece.html?_r=0

"In the end, however, Greece backed away from strong statements denouncing sanctions and joined other countries in the 28-member bloc in a unanimous vote in favor of expanding a list of sanctioned individuals, mostly Russians, and of work to prepare “any further action” to pressure combatants to respect a stillborn truce agreement from last year."

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...wo-russian-deputy-defence-ministers/23527227/
EU leaders then decided at a summit Thursday to go ahead with the sanctions because, irregardless of the new peace effort, they were meant to punish those implicated in the Mariupol attacks.

Its simple fact that greece and all the others voted in favor of these sanctions.

Its not greek, and its quite clear who attacked pro russian rebels had opened a new offensive 2 days before driving towards the city .

The greek gov already does. Perhaps you should start living in the real word? Greek agreed to ALL santions.
And you are quite delusional if you think Washington controls EU .

You can write "(*)(*)(*)(*) the eu" all day long , nobody cares .

 

Post above
""In the end, however, Greece backed away from strong statements denouncing sanctions and joined other countries in the 28-member bloc in a unanimous vote in favor of expanding a list of sanctioned individuals, mostly Russians, and of work to prepare “any further action” to pressure combatants to respect a stillborn truce agreement from last year.""

Afterwards they agreed to even more sanctions.

Where is this coming from that the greek would have not supported this?

History here would be used to somehow prove this is all US "evil" ploy for whatever. Its how regimes and dictatorships like russia work. They dont just say the other is wrong, they spew mountains of lies sprinkeled with some facts on just about anything for just abouteverything, creating an apathy in the people to just dont care anymore .

Yes history can be relevant but the EU in its infancy and now are 2 quite different things and work completly different .

 

The only one here pushing for anything is russia?

But with putin clinging to his waning power its just about everything he can do.

Hundreds of thousands out of work? Once more were do you get these silly notions the sanctions have such an impact on the EU?

 

Thank you. I think I probably understand the background politics about that reversal. What about the three other nations who tried, in vain, to modify the declaration by removing the phrase attributing the attack of Marioupol to the independents? Did they rescind their objections or just accept that their voices weren't important enough to be heard?

History is history. In many cases anyway. In this case it would demonstrate a number of things relating to the creation of the EU, those curious personalities involved and the background objectives. But as I said that is for another time and another thread.

If I may say so, I think your world is a conflicted one. You seem to have a psychological defensive mechanism that spikes where criticism of the US is concerned. I see this as a dangerous attitude to hold. Governments and especially the elites behind them need to be objectively seen for what they really are and, where appropriate brought to heel. Or, these days, made at least to wriggle a little, as they're beyond controlling.

Blind obedience to the state, which happened in the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact countries due to the punishments given to those who thought for themselves, was a truly tragic circumstance. The west was equally guilty of lying propaganda in those days. Today, it is far worse. Awful, in fact. In my view.

If the US has done evil, and it has (I sense you realize this too) then it should be aired and sorted out, not hidden in the shadows and blindly defended.

I have said elsewhere in the forum, and I see it bears repeating again now, that I also love my country and it's people. But I'll be damned rather than turn a blind eye and remain silent against the awful corruption, abuses of power and rice bowl politics and abuses that riddle it. Today these unethical and immoral occurences are even more apparent than ever before because of the internet. And the internet is important because the 4th estate has become a parody of itself. That particularly includes the source you kindly provided above. Therefore searching for other sources of information is, for me, a requirement, as I no longer at all trust my media - or yours - to tell me facts or the truth.

Whereas you seem to be happily compliant on this front and anything else is either BS or brainwashed.

Someone once wrote that the best slave is the one who believes he is free. How true.

 

I wouldnt have a clue, I only know that greece said (also link above) the media twisted the greek words and they never opposed .

You are wrong, this has little to do with the USA, more to do with ignorance . The posts I responded on were the typical ignorant posts of people who only talk in bullet points .

The USA is plenty of times wrong and has done some pretty appaling things but simply not in this case .

You dont have any clue how I think about this, yet just because I dont accept the EU is cotnrolled by the US (something you agree to) I am a slave to the US.

Ironicly you dont see that you show to behave just as I described . For example, give me reason why I shouldnt trust the sources I quoted on greece .

 

What the hell did I just read? First, this isn't news, it's some random (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*) from the internet's personal blog post. Needs to be moved to opinions. Second, how ass backwards and delusional do you have to be? You kremlin propagandists are so sad. I mean seriously, "the UK and Australia and all of Europe will be Russia's ally and nuke the US." God you suck.

 

Simply loony-Tunes

 

Here's the complete quote:

..."The problem was that he, and the new Greek government, were never asked!," Varoufakis wrote in a blog post. "So, clearly, the issue was not whether our new government agrees or not with fresh sanctions on Russia. The issue is whether our view can be taken for granted without even being told of what it is!"

However, the impression that the government of Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras is at odds with the rest of Europe over the issue was reinforced by comments from Energy Minister Panagiotis Lafazanis, who said Athens was against sanctions and "had no differences with Russia".

Tsipras himself met the Russian ambassador to Athens on Monday (26 January), the day he was sworn into office...

The NYTimes does not mention what individuals, and it doesn't mention what sanctions were not passed because of Greece. It's the typical spin of the New York Times, meant to create false impressions in people's minds.

If true, there must have been a lot of blackmail or bribery but I am skeptical of it and the credibility of the source, since German intelligence has found Breedlove hallucinating about Russians troops in Ukraine.

Not that it stopped Nuland from spitting out the same lies about Russian troops in Ukraine to the Foreign Relations Committee.

 

And later greece said it words were distorted and it agreed with the sanctions.

I never said the sanctions weren't altered on the request of greece I simply stated greece agreed with the current sanctions. Something some people here said never happened .

It happened, the new greek gov signed on the sanctions and later on even stricter sanctions. I dont know what lies pro russian like to spin but russia has little to no friends left . Putin and the rest of the oligarchy controlling russia just went to far .
But as I already stated they will do anything to remain in power .

 

• The fuzy label "Europe" is abusively yet commonly used by the EU Commission and the press, to designate the EU. Together with the rhetorics about some West®© entity...
• There are a lot of joint foreign policies, proxied by EU regulations. Take the case of South Stream gas pipe project to deliver russian gas: it was supposed to run through Bulgaria and Serbia. Bulgaria is EU country. It was told by the EU Commission that they can not host the pipeline. Serbia is not EU, but is told nevertheless also that because most of its neighbours are EU countries, it must follow the EU regulation about energy.
  In the current ukrainian crisis, the EU Commission is acting somewhat like the Politburo did for the Soviet Union (was also, on paper, a collection of countries.)
• Back in 2003, French and German political leaders were not yet a complete USA vassality. No longer the case.

that said, there's indeed no joint military policy. These days, it looks like USA, UK, Poland are wanting to launch a war on the Donetsk-Lugansk entities. In such case, France and Germany, the two main EU members, will hesitate, because war on Donbas will mean war on Russia. Current french governement has no clues at all and will follow what they think is the strongest player, but if Germany goes ahead in the first place. But Germany is uncertain about how far Russia can go. Most people don't seem to realize that Russia is in the defensive posture, Crimea was a vital gordian knot for its security, and they simply can't let Donbass become a future place for american bases. So Russia will keep Donbass. They would launch the military full scale into Donbass in case of a USA-UK proxied war. Nobody is going to hit Russia itself, so fight would happen in Donbass and nearby. Basically Russia could turn eastern Ukraine into a huge burden for the rest of EU.

I think he was saying that Germany is the facto running the EU. At Minsk-2 Merkel brought Hollande with her just for the show, in fact Germany was running much of the ukrainian "regime change" in Kiev, and is the buffer between USA policies and Russia, after Russia has de facto cut off communication with USA.

sanctions themselves have only affected russian economy partially. The big hurt is the low price of oil set by the Saudi. Russia also has rerouted imports, for the previously exported food products from EU, and implemented frameworks for increasing home production of few others. Of course Russia is badly hurt, but on a short term and certainly not critically. Most importantly it doesn't affect its military capabilities.

But the whole picture is that other countries, contemplating what the USA/EU banking and trade system are trying on Russia, are worried about the same applied to them in some future. Basically China, in order to keep its sovereignity, will side along Russia at a certain point. Because if what is inflicted on Russia now could work, then it means that it could be tried on China also.

Basically USA is playing full imperial game, they are saying: everybody in the galaxy do as we say or we cut you off banking, internet, trade, this and that and so on. Ha!

 

Really. I see more ignorance on this forum then I've ever seen anywhere else. And that's saying something.

Go ahead and clap yourself on your back why don't you. But I don't see what you think you do and which you are so quick to denounce. That vote had everything to do with the US. Or are you conveniently forgetting that France and Germany arranged a ceasefire with the Russians without even consulting with the US - such was their exasperation. I also understand that some European nations aren't really applying the sanctions anyway, but you'd need to be inside not outside to be sure.

And as Jeannette pointed out in her post, the Greeks were complaining that they weren't even consulted; their vote was taken for granted. And as we've now agreed, three other EU nations had objections that were ignored outright. When you see things like that happen in politics, it's usually because a powerful faction pushed something through against the wishes of others. The entire Russian sanction strategy was US in origin. As was the war itself.

Dream on Sherlock.

Yes, I do now think you are a slave ---- to US propaganda; you swallow it instead of spitting, and then regurgitate it without thinking things through for yourself.

Um?

I don't have that amount of time, or patience, available. The responsibility is yours, in any case. You have to undertake your own education. If you can unshackle your mind, there's a great deal available to read about the NYT, the WP and other western media leaders. An old and now outdated starting point would be Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent." There are many fine journalists out there writing independently these days. I would certainly include Robert Parry HERE, HERE and HERE in my list. I would also include the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists (HERE) who freely publish some very important stories that the mainstream media work hard to ignore, suppress or report inaccurately or partially.

 

Thats simply not the case .

They dont, at best they will send some form of aid as they are already doing.

They wont , there is silmply no reason for them to engage into something like that. Besides some future development like in kosovo of course .

Russia is on the offensive here, at one side its wants rebuild some of its lost influence and on the other side its hiding internal issues with this escalations. Basicly looking for a scapegoat abroad to hide the internal (*)(*)(*)(*)ty state russia is in .

military no, economy did take quit a hit . My point was that these santions have not been/barely felt in the EU while,it was badly felt in russia.

What other countries besides china, and do have anything in aneutral soruce to back this up?

Not at all, other countries know what russia is and was doing and I doubt they mind .

 

Other countries did mind. See HERE.

 

Thats about ukraien joining NATO and has nothing to do with what we were talking about.

That was about the sanctions on russia.