Migrants killed in 'religious clash' on Mediterranean boat

No in this case i think muslims have little to do. Just the sheer amount of dead drown ( about thousands per year ) is enough for people's stomach. The fishes are growing obese thanks to this illegal traffic, it's such a shame for humanity.

 

It is an anti-Muslim report, which has become common in recent media.

Sending EU fighter jets to the Mediterranean to sink all immigrants boats attempting to reach EU shores (Christian, jews, Muslim & atheist) might with some media exposure help to deter the flood of foreign economic migrants wanting to penetrate EU borders.


How uncivilised am I ? My comments may be unacceptable to others! But does the EU have to accept this swamping of foreigners that dispose of their passports that make it impossible to deport them to their home countries?

Happy to accept legitimate political refugees that can proof their case from their home countries, but have little/no sympathy for economic refugees attempting to sneek their way into Europe.

 

Most are from Syria and other war-ravaged countries. Many paid $10,000 for a place on a leaky ramshakle tub with a dubious crew.

 

You created this mess, it's now reaping time.

 

Well Ayaan Hirsi Ali has written quite extensively about the need for a "reformation" in Islam. I agree with the sentiment, but I don't think an apostate is the appropriate messenger for that. That's strictly an internal matter. And....I think a lot of the problems in Islam is because it's having a reformation. Wahhabism had been growing for 200 years, and the Saudi's funding it in the modern era has exacerbated it. Sayyid Qutb's books inspired the Muslim Brotherhood, and Al Qaeda, and there doesn't seem to be any Islamic counter narrative to that.

So moderate Muslims need to come up with a counter narrative and sell it.

But moderate Muslims are either going to figure it out, or maybe the rest of the world should keep you guys out until you do figure it out. I've already stated that I don't think that Islam is compatible with Western civilization and don't believe we should allow any more immigration from Muslim countries. That's a minority position now and I didn't even hold that position a couple of years ago, but each year there seemed more and more evidence that I'm right.

In a perfect world, I would never have to know about, or care about the current state of theology of Islam, but you guys have managed to turn a theological issue into a world wide security threat.

Congrats I guess.

 

Well, first off, IMO Western societies are generally too amorphous to be considered "tribal" except in a very broadened sense which would not be applicable in this particular discussion.

Responding to your claim, though, IMO there are no more "racial problems" in the West than anywhere else.

Every culture has, however, evolved its own communication patterns, and people that do not fit well into those are targeting themselves .There are, for example, interactive problems between some American whites and some American blacks because of conflicting communication strategies. Blacks from Africa sometimes fare better in this respect because their communication strategies are experienced by some US whites as being more appropriate. I have personally experienced and also observed this, and I am not the only one who has commented on it.

Some black females in the US make it a practice to undermine the self esteem of black males and to make them unsure of themselves. They actually encourage their men to act stupid. This may have kept some black men safe in former days, but now it is just experienced by almost everyone else as being exasperating. Some of the less intelligent whites actually believe the stupidity is real, which it often is not, and that ends up causing resentment on both sides.

If you don't present yourself as you want to be treated, you will not be treated as you prefer. Also, if you go around with a festering resentment of the opposite race at least some of them are bound to pick up on that and respond in kind. It's really much better to go off somewhere and do a little primal scream in private than work off your interracial issues on everyone else. After that has been done clarity improves and the issues of many turn out to be their own internal issues that in reality have nothing to do with race at all.

At least, so far, we don't have too many cutting off peoples' heads with machetes in the US. In the few cases we have, the perpetrators were mentally ill and got the idea from radical Muslims.

 

Actually, according to the article the victims are from Ghana, Nigeria the muslims charged with multiple aggravated murder are from the Ivory Coast, Senegal, Mali and Guinea. Just typical west African countries.

 

I think wahhabism is but a part of the wider salafist movement that probably began with Ibn Taymiyyah in the 14th century. "Salaf", predecessors or ancestors. They all believe the original Muslims and their doctrines are to be emulated. Salafi, Ahl-as-Sunnah ("People of the Sunnah") and Ahl al-Hadith ("People of the Tradition") a strict adherence to a strict and literal interpretation of the Koran and Hadiths. As a Sunni movement, the Bukhhari Hadith specifically.
The Saudi Wahhabis are certainly responsible in their support in the form of foreign aid, much of which is devoted to preaching this salafist Islam, but all these foreign nations already had their own salafist adherents.

I think its inaccurate to identify them all as Wahhabist, in that the only thing to distinguish Wahhabism from any other Salafist ideology, is their acceptance of the agreement between Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab and the house of Saud in 1744, and its acceptance of the ABSENCE of the Islamic Caliphate and the division of Islamic sovereignty between the house of Saud and house of Wahhab. Separation of church and state, Islamic style. Certainly not something ISIS or the other salafist groups would agree with.

In the 1920s the Ikhwan, the Saudi militias were Wahhabis. They revolted against the Rule of the house of Saud and their agreement with the British who ruled over Iraq Jordan and Kuwait. As good Salafist they couldn't help themselves but to wage Jihad against the godless Shiites in Iraq in violation of the Sauds agreements with the British and in violation the agreement between Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab and the house of Saud in 1744, which gave the house of Saud all authority over international relations.

The Sauds cracked down on the revolts by the Ikhwan, killing or expelling those who refused to obey the house of Saud. Those who remained became the Saudi National Guard, the military of Saudi Arabia today.
Many of those who were expelled ended up in Egypt, joining together with the Muslim Brotherhood to continue their salafist ideology that rejects the central component of Wahhabism that accepts the governmental rule of the house of Saud, which negates the existence of an Islamic Caliphate, of Islamic sovereignty.

 

The EU is to blame for not getting to the root of the problem, and leaving it to Italy and Greece to solve the problems with the migrants. First of all Islam does not discourage them from entering the EU since territorial expansion is part of their faith. The more Muslims that enter Europe, the sooner they will become a majority and take control.

There are also the criminal human traffickers who charge them thousands to take them to the 'flashy car' paradise, and which turns out to be hell...that is if they survive and aren't killed for their body parts. I think helping these migrants out economically in their home country, instead of paying the Pentagon to kill them, as well as advertising so they will know what they'll suffer with the traffickers, probably would do the trick.

 

The Christian victims are from Ghana and Nigeria the muslims charged with multiple aggravated murder are from the Ivory Coast, Senegal, Mali and Guinea. The French have been killing some of them in Mali, and the Pentagon hasn't been killing anybody in those nations.

 

Ayan Hirsi? Er, that's like reading about what a liberal-hippie thinks about the America Constitution.

So what if Qutb influenced the Muslim Brotherhood (what's wrong with the Muslim Brotherhood?) and Al Qaeda? Do you really think the terror group brought down the Twin Towers because they were influenced by Qutb? Have you read Qutb's works? He doesn't even condone the killing of innocents.

And Wahabism is a failed conservative attempt to "reform" Islam.

In case you haven't noticed, Islam is currently in a state of intellectual malaise. You'll have to wait a while. But 99% of Muslims are not Wahabi, so that's a good start.

Yes, and Western civilization is not compatible with Islam. If you get to influence our culture, then we get to immigrate. It's only fair.

And what exactly is this theological issue? The submission to God?

 

No, it's more likely the implied but unspoken warning:

"Submit to Allah...or else."

 

According to Qutb, any who do not submit to the rule of Islam are not "innocent".

"Islam is not merely a belief, so that it is enough merely to preach it. Islam, which is a way of life, takes practical steps to organize a movement for freeing man. Other societies do not give it any opportunity to organize its followers according to its own method, and hence it is the duty of Islam to annihilate all such systems, as they are obstacles in the way of universal freedom. ...
This religion is really a universal declaration of the freedom of man from servitude to other men and from servitude to his own desires, which is also a form of human servitude; it is a declaration that sovereignty belongs to God alone and that He is the Lord of all the worlds. It means a challenge to all kinds and forms of systems which are based on the concept of the sovereignty of man; in other words, where man has usurped the Divine attribute. Any system in which the final decisions are referred to human beings, and in which the sources of all authority are human, deifies human beings by designating others than God as lords over men.
This declaration means that the usurped authority of God be returned to Him and the usurpers be thrown out-those who by themselves devise laws for others to follow, thus elevating themselves to the status of lords and reducing others to the status of slaves. In short, to proclaim the authority and sovereignty of God means to eliminate all human kingship and to announce the rule of the Sustainer of the universe over the entire earth. ...
After annihilating the tyrannical force, whether it be in a political or a racial form, or in the form of class distinctions within the same race, Islam establishes a new social, economic and political system, in which the concept of the freedom of man is applied in practice."
Sayyid Qutb

 

What is the Multi-Billion Dollar enterprise that is Sports if not Tribal? The World Cup- Tribalism, Politics- Tribalism etc etc.

 

If Libya stayed unbroken under a Gaddafi or anything of that kind europeans wouldn't have the problem of migrants.

Let us remember what was the start of this problem. The start happened when the westerners were worried so much about human rights and growing violence from the side of Libyan state towards some native muslim organisations. As a resolve of so poor situation the libyan army was destroyed by european (mostly french) aircraft and the despot Gaddafi was killed. The democracy won another game and a great deal of black oil went from Libya for a very small price. But what happens now in the country of an export version of western democracy?

There is no state now. The country is embraced with violence and massacre. A considerable part of the territory is controlled quite officially by ISIS. The other groups of control are nothing better. The population of Libya considers that dying in an attempt to flee from their country to the west is a good option rather than living under condition of the export version of western democracy. Last week about 1 thousand people drowned trying to do that. This number is times more than the victims of MH-17. But... What do we see now? Now westerners are trying to make an agreement with pirates that they drown these vessels in order to let the picture of mass media good for the dummies eating on the most stupid and bloody propaganda that has ever existed in history of mankind.

I want just to mention that the blood of these people is not at Gaddafi's or Putin's hands. It is on hands of all the western europeans who understand what is happening but pretend to look good. This blood is accumulating at the bank of world justice and when the time comes your children and you yourself will have to pay dearly at the highest possible percentage for what you already have done and are still doing. If western europeans had a single drop of human christian values and holy spirit they would already have stopped this cannibal policy. I don't believe into any good intentions for the future until the westerners don't start to take responsibility for their atrocities and the atrocities which have been made in their name.

 

The Christian victims are from Ghana and Nigeria the muslims charged with multiple aggravated murder are from the Ivory Coast, Senegal, Mali and Guinea. None of them from Libya.

 

Well, if you want to retreat to those situations, which are not the same as the OP one, I might be able to buy into it to some extent.

However, your two examples also happen to be ways Western societies divert the instinctive energies we seem to be talking about. Some people trying to shape certain societies introduce sports competitions as a substitute for tribal war traditions.

It is allowing individuals to enter Western societies that don't have a habit of such diversion that I am objecting to.

There are, by the way, some members of Western society that are left cold by both politics and sports. I don't know enough about any specific traditional tribe to know if there are also people in them that are left cold by specific tribal practices or not, but I suspect it would be less likely. I would not expect a member of a traditional, isolated tribe to have the Aristotelian orientation necessary to be that divorced from the emotions tribal practices have evolved to trigger. I believe they would have a more Dionysian orientation.

I don't remember if Camille Paglia specifically dealt with the difference I am suspecting exists in terms of citizens in the West vs individuals in traditional tribes, but I picked up the terminology and thinking on it from her book, Sexual Personae, which is of course one of the seminal books of our time.

 

That changes the whole picture, right?

I just see that there was no ISIS in the region before the western intervention into Libya and Syria. Now I see how christians are slaughtered all over Africa and our wonderful western partners suggest nothing better but to start limiting the rights of muslims here... We have a considerable amount of muslims in Russia. I want neither to slaughter them nor being slaughtered by them. Maybe your democratic leaders or oligarchs or whoever makes any decision in your country takes the courage to clean up the mess after themselves? Because if they don't the responsibility will be communal! The guys who are throwing christians out of the boats are just an episode of the picture where a lot of guys with european citizenship are taking part and have their contribution to ISIS... It is here and now! It is your house! Your country! Your policy! And it is your responsibility and your hands in this blood! Even if you kill everyone who thinks so it wouldn't change the fact.

 

Yes, the conditions in Ghana, Nigeria, Ivory Coast, Senegal, Mali and Guinea have little to nothing to do with Libya.

 

I don't know enough to tell, but it has to be asked if all of these people on boats are really refugees or if some of them are actually, and even consciously, invaders.

It would be the first case of a civilization rescuing its invaders from the sea, and in keeping with Koranic war strategy, IMO.

Why is the West supposed to be rescuing all these people? If they are Muslims, and most of them are, why are the Muslim nations not rescuing them?

 

Personally, I have reached the point of disgust for all things Islamic and go out of my way to avoid anyone wearing a clothing that designates them to be remotely Muslim. I do not trust or wish to be near them at all....I even go to a different cashier at my local market when a certain woman is ringing things up. Partially because of he Habib, but also because she won't ring up bacon or alcohol.

Go ahead and follow whatever religion you desire...but do not be taken aback when you are looked down upon by those that do not.

And....for Allahs sake don't expect me to change MY life because of YOU.

 

Correct, the ironic aspect of this event is that Libyans weren't involved and, let's pay attention to this, Libya is known for its lay urban society [almost like Tunisia], may be this is why extremists tend to transform that country in a total mess ...

 

This is the result moronic NATO policy. Muslims will soon kill Christians in Italy. What did you expect? Destroy the most economically developed countries in North Africa and have no consequences? Why did you kill Gaddafi? I understand - it is profitable US. Especially given the fact that they are far away. But the EU?
Soon to you in Italy (and other EU countries) will flood of illegal immigrants from Ukraine. Who get used to it to rob and kill. Incidentally, with the support of the EU.
Apparently not enough for you - Libyans, Gypsies, Romanians, Bulgarians, Albanians and so on. You have done all that you have appeared - illegals Ukrainians.

 

Eh ... I'm becoming to regret that we accepted to get involved in the UK-France plan about Libya [without getting any feedback ... Italy has been cut off from the "loot" of that war].

We had not to give anti-radar coverage to French Rafale ... we had to say just "good luck" to French pilots!

 

Probably because they are in Italian Waters.