Do you think defending yourself against a law enforcement officer should be a right?

Discussion in 'Civil Liberties' started by Anders Hoveland, May 20, 2015.

?

Should resisting an officer be a right?

  1. Never

    2 vote(s)
    6.1%
  2. only under very extreme circumstances

    15 vote(s)
    45.5%
  3. whenever one has reason to believe it is an unlawful arrest

    4 vote(s)
    12.1%
  4. Self defense should always be a right, doesn't matter if it is a law enforcement officer or not

    12 vote(s)
    36.4%
  1. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    Unfortunately this perspective assumes that an individual only ever has something to fear before the arrest.

    Let me just present a hypothetical example (slightly absurd but it illustrates the point).
    A criminal wants to kill someone in particular. The only place the criminal has access to the victim is in a public place where security guards are present. If the criminal just walked up to the victim and killed him, there is a good chance the criminal would not escape. So instead the criminal decides to impersonate a law enforcement officer, and openly arrest the victim in public. Then once he has the victim vulnerable, handcuffed, and alone, he can commit the murder. Now there is no one around to stop him.

    So, in one sense, and particularly in certain special types of situations, it may be very important for the law enforcement to identify themselves before carrying out an arrest (or at least before leaving the scene with the arrested individual, assuming there are other people around). Unfortunately there is not always opportunity for this to happen.

    These types of hypotheticals may be extremely unlikely to happen in actual practice, but from the philosophical point of view of natural rights they are very important in principal.
     
  2. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    These types of hypotheticals may be extremely unlikely to happen in actual practice, but from the philosophical point of view of natural rights they are very important in principal. All free people should have the right to defend themselves, and should not be punished for doing so. Even when the 'adversary' appears to be law enforcement officers, one cannot be absolutely completely sure of their intentions. So the question is how to deal with that. The answer is not a simple one, and may depend very much upon the particular situation.

    It is very important to think about exactly what the law should be. It's not just a matter of practicality, but one of principle as well.
     
  3. JakeJ

    JakeJ Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, at least in law a person has a right to protect themselves against a criminal physical assault by police.
     
  4. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    That sounds nice, but that essentially evades the question. One might not know at that exact moment whether the assault is "criminal".
    Arrest is actually a form of assault. If I come over and try to put handcuffs on you and take you away to another location, that is a form of assault.

    Maybe I decide to put on a phony law enforcement uniform. Would that put you in the wrong for trying to resist arrest (i.e. being kidnapped) ? That's the whole point I am trying to make here. You simply cannot be absolutely 100% completely sure what the intentions of the other party are, or whether their actions are truly lawful.
     
  5. Crusade24

    Crusade24 New Member

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    You make a lot of very good points I happen to agree with. In fact, when I was reading your hypothetical situation my first reaction was to state for the person being arrested to demand identification from the officer in question (which in your situation would have been fake). Then straight after you mentioned the importance for law enforcement to identify themselves before carrying out an arrest and it seemed as though we followed the same thought process.

    My answer you quoted was based on my principles on how law enforcement should act in terms of respecting a person's individual rights in relation to the question of resisting an arrest. It did not as you quite rightly pointed out take into account the practicality's and the problems that may arise for the person being arrested.

    I think it's really a case of finding a balance between allowing the police to do their job properly but also respecting and protecting an individual's right to not be violated and put through excessive force. Or in your extreme case go through an unwarranted arrest which may end up causing a lot of harm. That is as you said not an easy thing to get completely right in practice and I do not think there is an easy answer to the question.

    It's rather a case of trying to put into practice these principles as best as we can.
     
  6. AlNewman

    AlNewman Well-Known Member

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    Unlikely to happen, you really do need to get out more. But just to clarify the issue, arrest is by warrant. No warrant, no reason to detain with one exception, getting caught in the act. Even then, the person detained must immediately be taken before a judge and probable cause proven to obtain a that much needed warrant.
     
  7. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    Much less likely to happen, but that does not mean it can't happen:
    LA black man handcuffed in police car--shoots himself in his back (autopsy says NOT)

    A team of security guards guarding a very important bank vault would be FOOLISH to all let their guard down just because two law enforcement officers ordered them to.

    How is someone who is being arrested to know that there truly is a lawful warrant? I suppose the police officer will just wait around while someone else confirms and verifies that the warrant is real? :smile: Not very likely.

    What you need to realize is that just because the law says something doesn't mean it will happen. Your first assumption is that the detained person actually will be taken before a judge (I would like to point out that there are no absolute guarantees of that happening). Your second assumption is that being taken before a judge somehow implies fairness. They are taken before a judge, so what?

    Theoretically that's how it should work. That's often not how it actually ends up working in reality. It's not that hard for law enforcement to get a warrant for almost anything. The judges are basically just there to rubber stamp everything. It's not that hard to find "probable cause". Anything could be evidence of anything, and the judges usually just take the officer applying for the warrant at their word.

    Just because the court has issued a warrant for someone's arrest does not necessarily mean there ever actually was any real probable cause. Judges are far too busy to scrutinize the details of every warrant, it's a conveyor belt like system. Hypothetically, it could even be possible that there might be some corrupt officials in place who are misusing their power or influence.

    But we are really getting off-topic here.
     
  8. Independant thinker

    Independant thinker Banned

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    It's an interesting idea. A lot of time, police are just causing trouble and siding with the aggressor against the victim. It's important to note, resisting arrest could end up in a battle to the death.
     
  9. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    as long as a PO is acting legally, any physical violence against him is a crime.
     
  10. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

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    Unlawful arrest or detainment can be dealt with without violence. If the officer is using undue force, or if your life is threatened by the officer's actions, you should use force, but only then.
     
  11. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

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    The question is what is an officer legally allowed to order you to do?
     
  12. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    most police instructions and orders are legal.

    of course if he is raping you, or lighting you on fire, that's not legal.
     
  13. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

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    The way I see it, a cop has no authority unless he is either protecting the general public or upholding the law. A cop has no authority to order somone to cease legal activities, unless it interferes in their ability to do their job.
     
  14. AlNewman

    AlNewman Well-Known Member

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    Define legally. Would being arrested for a traffic citation be legal?
     
  15. AlNewman

    AlNewman Well-Known Member

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    That would be the prudent thing to do and besides all the fun happens after the detainment.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Less than you can order the officer to do, he is the servant. My favorite word is "NO".
     
  16. Rerem

    Rerem New Member

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    So..... based on stuff that HERE is not happening.. every drunk/stupid /turd should try to kill a cop over a traffic stop? REALLY?

    i don't do "absolute" stuff.. BUT.. I do NOT back the bullcrap Paranoid Sociopath stupids either.
     
  17. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We even have a law here that allows it. Say a cop enters your house illegally unannounced and uses force.
     
  18. ryobi

    ryobi Well-Known Member

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    What Jews were to the nazis that's what poor people are to law enforcement in the United states today.
     
  19. Alucard

    Alucard New Member Past Donor

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    If the police officer is using brutal force against someone when the victim did not use any force against the police officer, I think the victim would have the right to retaliate.
     

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