New society without taxes

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by New society, Feb 6, 2016.

  1. New society

    New society New Member

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    All people complain that they don´t have enough money. They complain, that little earn, that rich people have more and more, that everything is expensive, that in socialism, people have better social conditions, that government spends a lot of money from our taxes, that there is corruption, everyone complains that pays high taxes, the government complains that cannot collect enough money from taxes and must make debts. What will solve all these problems?
    In every society there are three main groups: people, companies and government.
    People are working and receiving a salary, from which pay to companies money for products and services, which they need for live - food, housing, clothing, transportation, etc.
    Companies provide work to people and pay them salaries and provide to people products and services necessary for life.
    Both of groups pay taxes to the government, and government pays from this money other services necessary for the functioning of the country, such as police, justice, authorities, education, culture, environment, military, transport, research etc.
    Companies finance country so, that pay to people salaries and pay taxes to the government.
    This is the system, which we have now. And how we could change it?
    If we want to change it, that everyone complains, that have to pay a lot and gets little, companies should have the choice, whether they want to pay to people salaries and to government taxes, as it is now, or they want directly pay to other companies and institutions for services and products, which the government buys now for collected taxes and people for salaries.
    For example, a company will pay and ensure the education of children in any district and will not have to pay a percentage of the taxable amount, which is equivalent to the share of education funding in the government budget.
    Such a transfer of responsibility and funding from governments to companies could be carried out across the entire spectrum of paid taxes. Because in taxes are included also costs for police, justice, offices, culture, education, environment, military, transport, research etc. Such change will be able to choose companies their self and it will be advantageous for them because the costs for country life will be more effective and will be lower, because the company is still trying to reduce costs.
    Same it is with salaries. E.g. some companies provide to people lunch. So people do not get money in salary and pay for lunch, because they directly have lunch.
    When we look at the structure of salary using, we see that it is used for paying taxes and insurance, food, housing, clothing, transportation etc.
    Companies can provide certain services or products directly to people and then they don´t need to pay for the equal part of the salary.
    No matter, whether companies are owned by the state in socialism or by owners in capitalism.
    Everyone will be happy. Companies will not pay taxes or less, will not pay salaries or less, people will have everything, what they need for their lives, and the government will not have to worry about the people and will not need to indebt, only will control society, how is working.
     
  2. DarkSkies

    DarkSkies Well-Known Member

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    Hello again New society.

    Companies opting to take care of certain shares of the government's responsibilities should remove much of the government's spending issues. This idea should work well as long as the government and the companies don't collude against other companies. Also, if the society is going to forgo taxes, should companies have the choice of keeping the current practice of paying employee salary and government taxes? Lastly, my biggest concern would be if a creeping economic oligarchy would develop over time.
     
  3. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Governments don't prevent oligarchies they cause them.
     
  4. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Business profits wouldn't exist if the government were not there to enforce rent-seeking laws.
     
  5. onecut

    onecut New Member

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    Been there, done that. It was called the company town and we all know how well that worked!
     
  6. New society

    New society New Member

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    Hello DarkSkies

    taxes of companies should be replaced by direct payment of companies e.g. to doctors or teachers of state institutions.

    Today there is lobbying of companies, which have tax Holliday or residence in tax heaven like Belize or Bahamas. Anyhow companies will have obligation from the law to pay salaries to teachers or doctors in state institutions. There will not be possible to agree with government about exeption, because then these people will not have money and it will be punished by loss of licence.

    Which part of tax or salary should pay company depends on company itself. The goal is, they will not pay any tax and any salary, but they will have obligation to care about all spectrum of human life. Today in taxes they pay more for politicians and for companies, which are friends of government. In new society they will pay for people less.

    The idea is, that money will not flow from companies through taxes to government and than through state orders back to oligarchy. In new society will flow money directly to people.


    I hope that I answered you all questions. Thanks for your attention.
     
  7. Johnny-C

    Johnny-C Well-Known Member

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    A civilized, modern society WILL have some form of funding which serves to maintain certain common assets (roads, infrastructure, defense, education etc.). Even if we weren't using 'money' as pay... people would have to contribute to those things... somehow.

    That is the reality of things.
     
  8. cjm2003ca

    cjm2003ca Active Member

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    vote for El Chapo in 2016 and he will get rid of taxes and everyone will have a job..no need for people to stay at home and do nothing....they can help grow and manufacture some type pf drugs for their boss...pay might be a little low but at least they will be working full time...
     
  9. New society

    New society New Member

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    Onecut,

    company town had been managed by owner to obtain more workers. And company paid anyhow taxes to government.
    I'm talking about society, where taxes will be replaced by direct payments to the people and companies, which today get money from government for state orders and such a way avoid defrauding of tax payers money.
     
  10. New society

    New society New Member

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    Johnny

    this is exact place, where can rich companies increase their wealth from tax payers money and increase country debt. If government ask company to built road, how you can control contract price? You cannot. And be sure that price will be multiple higher than company needs for building of this road. If government use this system of payment for all state orders in all common assets and to small number of preferred companies, result will be, that government says, we don't have enough money from taxes, we must borrow from the bank and go in debt. And of course must increase taxes. And rich companies are then after more rich than before. People are more poor as before.

    If companies will not pay taxes, but pay for education or roads directly, I'm sure, that they will not pay more than they must.

    In socialism everybody owned everything. And we said, that what is not yours, you don't care how it will be managed.
    This was one of main things, why people weren't satisfied with regime. Now we have capitalism and look, there are again things as previously. Government says, tax money are not ours, we don't care how to manage them. We can give them trough common assets to our donors, lobbying groups and they will prepare us next election campaign.
     
  11. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There are a number of ways to decrease the burden on governments.

    One of them is for groups of concerned residents in an area to form a LETS and print up a local currency!

    http://www.whatcomwatch.org/php/WW_open.php?id=717

    City in Austria Printed Local Currency

     
  12. jdog

    jdog Banned

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    A society without taxes is not feasible, even the Founding Fathers realized we need some taxes.
    The issue is that everything in life needs to obey the pendulum theory. A pendulum can only swing in one direction so far and it must be pulled back to the center.

    Government and taxes have only been progressing in a linear fashion getting bigger and bigger consistently.

    It is time to look at both governments and taxes and to scale both back drastically.
     
  13. Brett Nortje

    Brett Nortje Well-Known Member

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    This is a great idea, to get companies to cooperate with each other, but this is already the way things work. may i explain it to you?

    The way you see the way things work, you would say that the state pays too much for services and other sectors, but, if you were to look at a country without taxes, how would the state pay for these things? who would be the boss in charge of laws? a leader without power is a leader that is not listened to. the way things work now is that people work for the private sector or business, the business pays the people, both of them pay taxes, the state pays for the service delivery of the people.

    If the companies or business people were to pay each other, this is called credits and debits, like in accounting, yes? this happens naturally. trying to get them to pay this 'to the people' in the form of police or other service delivery would mean they need laws, and people to enforce these laws. that means there needs to be the state getting money to pay the cops, and others, or there would be no payment, as they could pay the cops to security of the country, or, as i prefer to call it, muscle, to ignore them.

    Let me give you an example of what i understand to be your argument; john works to get paid, the company pays him. then the company pays the other company to give them stuff, yes? that means john has to come back to the company to finance this. if it were that the company pays other companies and for other services, it would mean taxes to someone else, or, taxes to the state as is done now. this is then regulated to provide a way of balance between companies trying to pay for these things, but there is no bottom to what they must pay, meaning, you are promoting a corporation rule system. i think you should read up on "anarchism" as it is nearly similar to your theory, yes?

    You are either making no changes, which means people complain, or you are trying to make changes that change nothing, or you are upsetting the concept of 'property rights.' property rights means that if you earn your salary, it is yours. i believe in socialism too, as this is where the state plays a role in your business dealings and operations. i see why people are complaining, as you probably want the end to state intervention, yes? people always complain!

    In a social system though, the state just makes sure laws are 'enforced.' true they don't care about the country, as long as it works to their liking, but, they will blend big business and state together. this is beneficial because the state and big business together can regulate nearly everything in the country, so, if you have the right people involved, they will care. if you compare this to the free market, well, the free market makes more money than any other form of state! this means, property rights and stuff, and, that the state does not excuse the operations of the companies as it is not their mistake too.

    What you are proposing would result in chaos.
     
  14. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    True.......... but if a government will loan the various branches of itself money at zero interest for the types of projects that all citizens agree need to be done then the tax burden can be greatly decreased.

    We can agree that we need good roads, hospitals, schools and a well equipped police force and military for example

    http://www.michaeljournal.org/appenB.htm

     
  15. New society

    New society New Member

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    Thanks for your opinion Brett,

    in this new society will everything run as it is now in countries. Just one thing will be changed. Taxes will be replaced by direct payments for common assets and even to justice, so for all things, what today pays government from taxes for. So boss in charge of laws will be same as today, only will be financed from former taxpayers directly and not from government. Government will just control it.
    You are right it looks chaotic, so change should be processed step by step. Taxpayers will finance at first e.g. education and will not pay a percentage of the taxable amount, which is equivalent to the share of education funding in the government budget. If government pays today e.g. 3% from budget for education (it is example, I don't know how much is it exactly), so companies will pay 3% to school in it's district.
     
  16. sharik

    sharik Banned

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    should abolish taxes altogether because they indicate feudalism.

    there also should be introduced constitutional rights for medical care, food and housing provided free of any charge.

    in return, everyone should be obliged to work, and careers should build according to the age of a person: the older you are, the higher rank you get.
     
  17. New society

    New society New Member

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    Dennis and Jdog,

    in new society taxes will be replaced by direct payments of former taxpayers for services and products and to all institutions, which are now paid from government. So economy will run same as it is now, but it will be changed flow of money and it will not flow over government, where could be defrauded.
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  18. Liberty_One

    Liberty_One Active Member

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    Umm, no. Socialism by another name still stinks. Businesses should focus on making products and services people want that they can sell at a profit, not trying to be semi-states. And we don't need the government to provide things like roads and schools either. These can be provided for on a for-profit basis just like shoes and lawn-mowing can.
     
  19. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Galt's Gulch was no more than an absurd fantasy.
     
  20. New society

    New society New Member

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    Liberty_one

    companies will have profit in new society as well, just part of money, which they pay as tax to government today, in new society will pay directly to schools for example.
     
  21. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This is certainly interesting!

    My vision for the future is to set up a system where local printed currencies... in the form perhaps of a Volunteerism Hour....... back up the type of activities in an area that are also paid for by government but......… can also be accomplished by a group of local and concerned citizens.

    http://www.politicalforum.com/canad...ar-liberal-party-volunteerism-hour-could.html

    A Liberal Party Dollar or Liberal Party Volunteerism Hour could.......

     
  22. Liberty_One

    Liberty_One Active Member

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    That's a terrible idea. The purpose of a business is to sell products and services at a profit. The profit is society's way of directing firms to produce what we want. Who are you to determine what the rest of us should and shouldn't have? How do you know where resources should be allocated better than the owners of those resources?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Not an argument.
     
  23. New society

    New society New Member

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    Liberty_one

    today owners pay taxes and don't know where this money will be allocated and also can be defrauded. In new society will be taxes replaced by direct payment to school for example and owners can be sure, that money will not be defrauded by government for example. Companies will have profit in new society as well, because as you said profit is society's way of directing firms to produce what we want. Change will be in taxes, they will not be paid to government, but direct to companies and institution which today receive money from government budget. Amount will be same as today companies pay in taxes, so they will have profit as well.
     
  24. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How very comforting considering private companies never defraud their customers or shareholders.
    Wake up Agnes.
     
  25. Liberty_One

    Liberty_One Active Member

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    Companies nor anyone else should pay taxes. There's no logical reason for it. All you're talking about is taxing in kind rather than in money. You're still demanding that companies pay for things the government wants, just with those products and services directly instead of through money taxation. It's better to get rid of all taxation and then let individuals through their purchasing power decide what they want to be produced.
     

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